Hindus, Muslims, and Christians

[Bootstrap]

To some people, that means that I do not accept "who they are", this is their identity. And this is the paradox: my identity is rooted in an understanding of God and of me as a created being in God's good will, my body is very much my body, and I cannot be who I am and use THEIR worldview as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible.

I have both Muslim and Hindu neighbors. I believe in my heart that they are bound by superstition and false beliefs. I cannot be who I am and use THEIR world view as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible. How do you suggest that I live my life and relate to my neighbors?

Personally, I relate to them as neighbors. And there are things I have in common with both Hindus and Muslims that I do not have in common with other neighbors. For instance, true Muslims really do believe that God is to be obeyed. Hindus believe that there is more to life than what is seen and that there are consequences for what we do. And both have a value on helping those who need our help. In India, Muslims and Christians are both persecuted religious minorities, so we have that in common.

I moved this from the trans thread, but I might also point this out: both Hindus and Muslims generally believe that our bodies have gender, and that this is part of the created order.

In general, I think I build on what you have in common. And especially on things you have in common that you might not have in common with others.

But I also draw lines. When a Hindu friend took me to a Hindu temple on a tour of her city, I made it clear that I could make no offerings and could do no acts of worship. She said that I was welcome to come in and just look, so I did. For that matter, I pray along with most of the Orthodox liturgy, but I don't participate in some of the Marian parts.

[Ken]

To some people, that means that I do not accept "who they are", this is their identity. And this is the paradox: my identity is rooted in an understanding of God and of me as a created being in God's good will, my body is very much my body, and I cannot be who I am and use THEIR worldview as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible.

I have both Muslim and Hindu neighbors. I believe in my heart that they are bound by superstition and false beliefs. I cannot be who I am and use THEIR world view as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible. How do you suggest that I live my life and relate to my neighbors?

Personally, I relate to them as neighbors. And there are things I have in common with both Hindus and Muslims that I do not have in common with other neighbors. For instance, true Muslims really do believe that God is to be obeyed. Hindus believe that there is more to life than what is seen and that there are consequences for what we do. And both have a value on helping those who need our help. In India, Muslims and Christians are both persecuted religious minorities, so we have that in common.

I moved this from the trans thread, but I might also point this out: both Hindus and Muslims generally believe that our bodies have gender, and that this is part of the created order.

In general, I think I build on what you have in common. And especially on things you have in common that you might not have in common with others.

Hindus are living in explicit sin and in violation of both the 1st and 2nd Commandments. There is absolutely no ambiguity about that. None whatsoever. Are you being consistent in using Biblical definitions of sin to guide your interactions with others? I have never once seen any hand-wringing by conservative Christians about how they can live next to Muslim or Hindu neighbors, or accommodate such people in schools, workplaces, and so forth. Why is that? Sheer hypocrisy?

And no, you are actually wrong about Hinduism and gender. It is much more complex than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_and_g ... n_Hinduism

[Bootstrap]

Hindus are living in explicit sin and in violation of both the 1st and 2nd Commandments. There is absolutely no ambiguity about that. None whatsoever. Are you being consistent in using Biblical definitions of sin to guide your interactions with others? I have never once seen any hand-wringing by conservative Christians about how they can live next to Muslim or Hindu neighbors, or accommodate such people in schools, workplaces, and so forth. Why is that? Sheer hypocrisy?

You seem to have an image of me hand-wringing about whether I can live next to trans neighbors or work with them. Or perhaps others in the trans thread. But I don't see any of that in their posts or mine. But I do think a lot about HOW to order my relationships with others who have a very different world view from mine. In some ways, that's not terribly different from figuring out how to deal with political culture warriors on the left or the right.

I think it's important to realize that we live in the world, that most people do not share our world view. That's something else I have in common with Muslims and Hindus, FWIW. I used to work for a company that had its conference in Las Vegas every year. A Muslim man and I started spending time together, looking for wholesome things to do in Vegas.

And no, you are actually wrong about Hinduism and gender. It is much more complex than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_and_g ... n_Hinduism

I have some friends to whom it is not that complex ... I am no scholar of the Hindu religion.

[Ken]

Hindus are living in explicit sin and in violation of both the 1st and 2nd Commandments. There is absolutely no ambiguity about that. None whatsoever. Are you being consistent in using Biblical definitions of sin to guide your interactions with others? I have never once seen any hand-wringing by conservative Christians about how they can live next to Muslim or Hindu neighbors, or accommodate such people in schools, workplaces, and so forth. Why is that? Sheer hypocrisy?

You seem to have an image of me hand-wringing about whether I can live next to trans neighbors or work with them. Or perhaps others in the trans thread. But I don't see any of that in their posts or mine. But I do think a lot about HOW to order my relationships with others who have a very different world view from mine. In some ways, that's not terribly different from figuring out how to deal with political culture warriors on the left or the right.

I think it's important to realize that we live in the world, that most people do not share our world view. That's something else I have in common with Muslims and Hindus, FWIW. I used to work for a company that had its conference in Las Vegas every year. A Muslim man and I started spending time together, looking for wholesome things to do in Vegas.

And no, you are actually wrong about Hinduism and gender. It is much more complex than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_and_g ... n_Hinduism

I have some friends to whom it is not that complex ... I am no scholar of the Hindu religion.

Yes, Hinduism is diverse as is Christianity. There are many Christians who don't share your views either. But there is no denying that concepts of gender and sexuality are vastly different in Hinduism than in your binary version of conservative Christianity.

What am I talking about here? For example, in the other thread you implied that it was Christians who are really the ones being discriminated against by trans people when it comes to trans issues:

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Yet I never see anyone ever use similar language when it comes to people of other faiths. Who are all, by Biblical definition, living in sin. People would be quick to label such views as antisemitic or Islamophobic or Hinduphobia. Why should I have to be respectful of their sinful beliefs and superstitions?

[Bootstrap]

What am I talking about here? For example, in the other thread you implied that it was Christians who are really the ones being discriminated against by trans people when it comes to trans issues:

The biggest problem I have in everyday life is this: some people insist that I must actively use their pronouns and agree with them, or else I'm not supporting them in who they are. I ask for room for me to be who I am too, but that isn't always enough for the person I am talking to.

Um, no. I didn't say that or imply that I am being discriminated against in that setting. I think this is a difficult situation for both them and me. And it gets very personal.

In public schools and some other settings, I do think that there are times that parents like me are discriminated against by people who have decided their beliefs should trump mine when it comes to helping my children figure out sexuality. In some schools, at least.

[ken_sylvania]

Hindus are living in explicit sin and in violation of both the 1st and 2nd Commandments. There is absolutely no ambiguity about that. None whatsoever. Are you being consistent in using Biblical definitions of sin to guide your interactions with others? I have never once seen any hand-wringing by conservative Christians about how they can live next to Muslim or Hindu neighbors, or accommodate such people in schools, workplaces, and so forth.
Why is that? Sheer hypocrisy?

I can't speak for the kind of conservative Christians you interact with, but I can tell you that among the conservative Amish and Mennonites with whom I interact there is no hand-wringing about living next to LGBTQ people or about working with them, etc. Are there discussions on occasion about how to handle accommodation requests, requests to affirm perversions through using certain requested pronouns, etc? Yes. Are these discussions more common than discussions about how to accommodate Muslims or Hindus in the workplace? Again, yes. Why? Because the Muslims and Hindus with whom we work do not ask us to affirm them in their belief system or take offense when we refuse to recognize their gods. We aren't obnoxious about it, but there is a respectful understanding where they understand we believe their religion is a false religion, and they don't accept ours. They don't ask us to pretend that their gods are alive. That is markedly different from how some LGBTQ people interact. When a man asks us to pretend that he is a woman, that creates an accommodation problem that is not easily solved.

[Josh]

Both Hindus and Muslims (and Christians) have a context for allowing other people to have different religious beliefs.

The present-day trans-national globalist "religion" that revolves around identity-as-a-choice, however, doesn't seem to tolerate anyone deviating from its central tenets. We all must become adherents to it, or else face being labelled as bigots and ostracised from our jobs and communities - or in the case of my birthplace, Victoria, it is actually illegal to disagree with their tenets.

Hinduism and Islam, on the other hand, don't require universal agreement. Islam in particular has a context in which to allow Christianity. Hinduism is inherently pluralistic.

[Bootstrap]

The present-day trans-national globalist "religion" that revolves around identity-as-a-choice, however, doesn't seem to tolerate anyone deviating from its central tenets. We all must become adherents to it, or else face being labelled as bigots and ostracised from our jobs and communities - or in the case of my birthplace, Victoria, it is actually illegal to disagree with their tenets.

Baptism and military service were like that for early Anabaptists. Emperor worship was like that for early Christians. I think we have it a lot easier than they did.

But they, too, had to figure out how to be in the world but not of it, living the love of Jesus as well as the holiness of Jesus. I think that's at the heart of what it means to be a Christian, doing that in communities of grace.

[Josh]

The present-day trans-national globalist "religion" that revolves around identity-as-a-choice, however, doesn't seem to tolerate anyone deviating from its central tenets. We all must become adherents to it, or else face being labelled as bigots and ostracised from our jobs and communities - or in the case of my birthplace, Victoria, it is actually illegal to disagree with their tenets.

Baptism and military service were like that for early Anabaptists. Emperor worship was like that for early Christians. I think we have it a lot easier than they did.

But they, too, had to figure out how to be in the world but not of it, living the love of Jesus as well as the holiness of Jesus. I think that's at the heart of what it means to be a Christian, doing that in communities of grace.

One of the problems is that it is less clearly defined. Emperor worship required you to adhere to the state religion (although the Romans carved out an exception for Jews, for example).

In our present era, though, the Empire tells us we can be Christians, but we just have to agree to make changes to make our religion "compatible" with the Empire.

[Bootstrap]

One of the problems is that it is less clearly defined. Emperor worship required you to adhere to the state religion (although the Romans carved out an exception for Jews, for example).

In our present era, though, the Empire tells us we can be Christians, but we just have to agree to make changes to make our religion "compatible" with the Empire.

As I read history, that's a lot like what happened under Constantine. And Hitler's "Positive Christianity" did the same. Modern Christian Nationalism and liberal Christianity are also doing this.

FWIW, I think Jesus said that the Pharisees were doing something that looked like faithful religion but was not.

There's never been a bad time to look carefully at what Jesus said and taught and ask God to show us how to do the same, faithfully, in love ...