Christians and Trans

[steve-in-kville]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said "Christians and trains">

Could almost be true. Train wreck

[Josh]

I see how, with your viewpoint, the question was insulting and I do apologize. The statements you make above have been outdated by at least two decades and I disagree with you, but it is your privilege to hold to them.

My views are in line with mainstream views. If you want to hold alternative views, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it any better to ask people in public if they’re autistic or ADD/ADHD just because you hold a fringe belief that autistic or ADD/ADHD people are “very intelligent” as a generalisation. I would express a concern that such a generalisation is harmful.

Josh, apparently in your opinion it is perfectly fine for you to twist what others say, pull things out of context to make them look like they believe false doctrine and be downright rude.

We have multiple posters here who believe they can be a Christian yet affirm homosexuality behaviour and still be Christian. That’s false doctrine in my belief system, and it isn’t me twisting their words. It’s what they believe and say in their own words. One of them is an ordained pastor in a Mennonite denomination, albeit inactive, who has publicly pushed hard to move they denomination in that direction.

When you do this, it isn't okay for others to be hurt. I could feel hurt over things you posted in response to me today and yesterday. You have been rude in the past, to me and to others. I could not find any apologies from you, but I may have missed something. Yet, when I or others apologize sincerely, you offer an etiquette lesson instead of acknowledgment?????

Thank you for not charging.

Let’s separate the two.

I’m sorry for my aggressive tone with you in this particular thread. I read what you said and misinterpreted it as yet another call to affirm open sin and paint people who try to call out sin as somehow being bad Christians. Such statements happen here frequently from posters who believe certain sins aren’t sins.

However, I make zero apologies for calling out sin as sin and if someone who holds to false doctrine is hurt by that, then I make no apologies for them being hurt. They need to repent and obey the gospel, end of discussion.

[Bootstrap]

This thread is for discussing how we, as Christians who believe in creation as male and female, should relate to trans issues in the surrounding culture. Please do not debate whether the Bible teaches that - start a new thread if you want to do that. Please do not attack people, neither MN participants nor others. This thread is for us to explore how we respond.

Can we please go back to each responding for ourselves?

[Soloist]

This thread is for discussing how we, as Christians who believe in creation as male and female, should relate to trans issues in the surrounding culture. Please do not debate whether the Bible teaches that - start a new thread if you want to do that. Please do not attack people, neither MN participants nor others. This thread is for us to explore how we respond.

Can we please go back to each responding for ourselves?

Me: I can’t do that…

Me too: Yes you can.

Me: No really I can’t.

Me too: You are just making excuses!

Me: But I have Asperger syndrome!

Me too: That just means you’re nutty! And theoretically, can sympathize more with transgenders, as they have a much higher rate of autism which is a catch all for several disorders now.

Me: I have no words for you…

Me too: You’re on a bell curve, you’re slightly above average intelligence and you have slightly less issues than some people.

Me: Are you saying I’m average?

Me too: If the shoe fits… wear it.


Okay, on a more serious note, it does seem like there’s a fairly high incident rate of OCD, autism and other mental health conditions traveling along with transgenderism. So, perhaps the fact that they don’t look at society in life the way that most people do should invoke more sympathy for them.
Someone with autism can tend to categorize everything in neat little boxes. If they don’t fit into those boxes or fit into the wrong boxes…

[Judas Maccabeus]

I see how, with your viewpoint, the question was insulting and I do apologize. The statements you make above have been outdated by at least two decades and I disagree with you, but it is your privilege to hold to them.

My views are in line with mainstream views. If you want to hold alternative views, that’s fine, but it doesn’t make it any better to ask people in public if they’re autistic or ADD/ADHD just because you hold a fringe belief that autistic or ADD/ADHD people are “very intelligent” as a generalisation. I would express a concern that such a generalisation is harmful.

Josh, apparently in your opinion it is perfectly fine for you to twist what others say, pull things out of context to make them look like they believe false doctrine and be downright rude.

We have multiple posters here who believe they can be a Christian yet affirm homosexuality behaviour and still be Christian. That’s false doctrine in my belief system, and it isn’t me twisting their words. It’s what they believe and say in their own words. One of them is an ordained pastor in a Mennonite denomination, albeit inactive, who has publicly pushed hard to move they denomination in that direction.

When you do this, it isn't okay for others to be hurt. I could feel hurt over things you posted in response to me today and yesterday. You have been rude in the past, to me and to others. I could not find any apologies from you, but I may have missed something. Yet, when I or others apologize sincerely, you offer an etiquette lesson instead of acknowledgment?????

Thank you for not charging.

Let’s separate the two.

I’m sorry for my aggressive tone with you in this particular thread. I read what you said and misinterpreted it as yet another call to affirm open sin and paint people who try to call out sin as somehow being bad Christians. Such statements happen here frequently from posters who believe certain sins aren’t sins.

However, I make zero apologies for calling out sin as sin and if someone who holds to false doctrine is hurt by that, then I make no apologies for them being hurt. They need to repent and obey the gospel, end of discussion.

The definition of sin has not changed in the past two decades, or for that matter, forever.

Saying that the definition of sin has changed reflects an other than christian theistic world view. In the christian theistic world view, a Holy God places those definitions on the hearts of mankind. If you believe He does not do this, that it can change, or that mankind has been left alone in the universe, either really (God is not) or functionally (God just left us on our own, or Deism) than you have drifted from the view put forth in the Bible. For christians, (To borrow a book title from Francis Schaffer) He is there, and He is not silent.

[Judas Maccabeus]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said "Christians and trains">

Could almost be true. Train wreck

You do know what a cornfield meet is?

Welcome to the cornfield.

[Bootstrap]

On Page 3, we were seeing posts like this.

I am encouraged by this thread.

I'd like to get back to that. Requests:

1. Please don't tell other people what is wrong with them. Let's talk about what we each think we should do to get it right.
2. In this thread, we assume that we are created male and female, and that your birth gender is your gender. That can be debated in other threads, not here.
3. Please don't tell people what they really think. Tell us what you really think.

I think this works best when we each focus on sharing our own understanding of the Bible and relationships we are working things out in. To the extent we can - a lot of that may not be best to spill out on a public forum.

[Josh]

On Page 3, we were seeing posts like this.

I am encouraged by this thread.

I'd like to get back to that. Requests:

1. Please don't tell other people what is wrong with them. Let's talk about what we each think we should do to get it right.
2. In this thread, we assume that we are created male and female, and that your birth gender is your gender. That can be debated in other threads, not here.
3. Please don't tell people what they really think. Tell us what you really think.

I think this works best when we each focus on sharing our own understanding of the Bible and relationships we are working things out in. To the extent we can - a lot of that may not be best to spill out on a public forum.

I suppose we need to first start by finding out what we do actually agree on. My perspective is that the Bible teaches that crossdressing is an abomination, which means we need to treat it like a sin. The fact society in some circles accepts it doesn't change how sinful it is.

I would view transsexualism much like I would view these two scenarios:

#1, someone is a drunkard and repeatedly gets DUIs. He hails from a subculture where drunkenness is okay or even encouraged, and where getting DUIs is laughed off; his friends and family will blame the police for harassing him for pulling him over with a broken taillight, not the fact he was drunk in the first place.

As a Christian, I would view this as: (a) drunkenness is a sin and is wrong; (b) living in sin leads to harmful consequences like DUI convictions, car accidents, and even death. Therefore, the drunkard needs to repent. His alcoholism may indeed stem from a mental illness or be a mental illness itself. Repentance may look like seeking treatment for thata.

#2, someone has an anger/outburst problem and often screams and yells at their spouse, children, or even other people. He comes from a subculture where yelling and screaming is acceptable and has a hard time seeing he has a problem. In his view, his wife is to blame about something legitimate, so it's OK he screams at her. His children are being disobedient or need disciplined, so it's okay that he yells at them.

As a Christian, I would refer to the verse on not "railing" (Eph. 4:32) and highlight this as an actual sin area. Excuses about cultural background aren't acceptable, but the person may indeed have a struggle or even a mental illness that leads them to scream and yell. They may need to seek help with that and to learn coping behaviours to not do that.

So my point of view is that someone who is insisting on crossdressing, pretending to be the opposite sex, and so forth should be viewed the same way as a drunk driver who is in denial, or an angry person who has frequent outbursts who blames it on not growing up in a loving home.

So, let's go to #3...

#3, someone feels more comfortable wearing women's clothes than men's clothes, even though he is a man. He feels he has excuses because (a) society at large accepts this, and (b) he blames his upbringing and strict home life. His parents weren't very affectionate and his dad never really accepted him, and he didn't feel comfortable talking about this. So now he rejects their religion and belief system and feels justified in this.

As a Christian, I would refer that the Bible talks about crossdressing as an abomination, and that having a bad home life isn't an acceptable excuse to do this. Such a person needs to seek good counselling and learn coping strategies to avoid this bad behaviour. (This will be harder to do now, since many governments have outlawed offering any therapy or counselling to a person who crossdresses and pretends they are the opposite sex and wants to stop; however, they can seek help from a pastor or other religious figure who can still offer such faith based counselling).

I hope that makes my position clear. I think it should be quite clear that soft-pedalling a drunk driver or someone who screams and yells at their wife and kids is not the right approach, and it is correct and proper to identify sin as sin. And I have seen much evil come about in the church when the person who screams and yells at their wife and kids has endless excuses to justify it, and the church is afraid to label it as "sin" and deal with it. Crossdressing is no different.

[Josh]

Now, let's talk about dealing with people who aren't Christians and don't accept faith at all.

I've worked alongside a lot of people who regularly drive drunk and think it's OK. I don't confront them about this on a frequent basis. I wouldn't get in a car with them in the evening. I also wouldn't enable their behaviour by picking them up when they drunk-dial me for a ride. (They can go get an Uber.) I think consequences from bad behaviour are important.

I've also been around many people who have a lot of angry outbursts or are cruel/abusive to their wife & kids, or husband & kids. I'm not tolerant of that either but I don't always have an open opportunity to confront them about it. However, I have refused to play along that they are the world's best spouse and kindly but firmly rebutted their complaining about their spouse and instead redirected conversation to how they could change. (And unsuccessfully, I might add.)

Just like I won't participate in the delusions that "I'm a good husband and everything is my wife's fault, even though she's left me, my children don't want anything to do with me, and I keep having romantic encounters with other women", I won't participate in the delusions of "I was born a woman but I insist when you talk to a third party about me that you use 'he' and 'him'." And I see nothing wrong with maintaining such a stance. With that said, I also don't go out of my way to try to aggravate people. If a deranged homeless man is having schizophrenic fantasies and ranting and raving on the street, I don't necessarily go try and reason and correct him out of his delusions. But I also won't participate with them or enable him.

[Grace]

When I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said "Christians and trains">

Could almost be true. Train wreck

LOL, And for once I am not the one who stirred the pot.

Verity is referred to as a "she". How do we know Verity isn't a "he"?