Christians and Trans

[Bootstrap]

On Page 3, we were seeing posts like this.

I am encouraged by this thread.

I'd like to get back to that. Requests:

1. Please don't tell other people what is wrong with them. Let's talk about what we each think we should do to get it right.
2. In this thread, we assume that we are created male and female, and that your birth gender is your gender. That can be debated in other threads, not here.
3. Please don't tell people what they really think. Tell us what you really think.

I think this works best when we each focus on sharing our own understanding of the Bible and relationships we are working things out in. To the extent we can - a lot of that may not be best to spill out on a public forum.

I suppose we need to first start by finding out what we do actually agree on. My perspective is that the Bible teaches that crossdressing is an abomination, which means we need to treat it like a sin. The fact society in some circles accepts it doesn't change how sinful it is.

In this thread, we do not need to start by finding out what we agree on. If anyone wants to debate whether trans is OK, we will ask them to leave this thread and start their own thread. One person was already asked to leave. If anyone wants to provoke a debate on that issue from the other side in this thread, I ask that they do so in another thread too. That is not what this thread is for.

Do you have some examples that show how you or others have done this well in your own life? Or things you have tried that went wrong? How do you personally approach living in a society where many people may see your views as wrong or even toxic? That's what this thread is for.

[mike]

I believe in treating people with courtesy and respect including those that I fundamentally disagree with. For example in this thread Josh and Bootstrap are in marriages that I could not accept as legitimate due to my religious beliefs, but I hope both of them could say that over the years that we have conversed online that I have tried my best to be respectful of their views. That extends to many spheres of life such as the workplace, online forums, neighbors, family, acquaintances, and etc.

But I do draw lines, and the most obvious place is church. I could not conscientiously be a part of the same church with people who are transgendered, homosexual, divorced & remarried with first partner still living, and many other things that are morally objectionable to me.

I also draw lines when it comes to personal friendships and events I will attend. I have a friend who plans to marry his girlfriend, and I fully expect to be invited to the wedding and have to explain to him (and it will be no surprise to him) that I can't come due to my objections to the relationship. I'm fully willing to be courteous and professional with business acquaintances and neighbors and even family in these kinds of situations, but there is a limit to how much I will reach out to them on a personal level. I don't really want myself or my family to spend a lot of time in their company just for friendship purposes. For purposes of outreach, yes, but there's a difference between reaching out to someone and relishing their company.

I realize this might be considered offensive to some people, but if a person doesn't know how to respect other's principles, then they should not expect others to respect theirs, either.

[Bootstrap]

For me, this is an important concern: my views really may be seen as toxic or abusive. I think our bodies were made by God and that there is wisdom in listening to our bodies and living in our bodies. If a person is not OK with living in their body, I don't think the solution is a new body, except for the spiritual body we will have after the resurrection.

To some people, that means that I do not accept "who they are", this is their identity. And this is the paradox: my identity is rooted in an understanding of God and of me as a created being in God's good will, my body is very much my body, and I cannot be who I am and use THEIR worldview as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible.

But we live in the same neighborhoods. Some of these people are friends or relatives. I think this is just one more area of being in the world but not of it. And I think I need to look primarily to the example of Jesus to know what that looks like, but also to the rest of the New Testament. They looked weird to their neighbors too.

[Bootstrap]

I believe in treating people with courtesy and respect including those that I fundamentally disagree with. For example in this thread Josh and Bootstrap are in marriages that I could not accept as legitimate due to my religious beliefs, but I hope both of them could say that over the years that we have conversed online that I have tried my best to be respectful of their views. That extends to many spheres of life such as the workplace, online forums, neighbors, family, acquaintances, and etc.

But I do draw lines, and the most obvious place is church. I could not conscientiously be a part of the same church with people who are transgendered, homosexual, divorced & remarried with first partner still living, and many other things that are morally objectionable to me.

I probably draw lines in a similar way. I don't want to debate the D&R issue in this thread, but if I believed the Bible said what you think it says, I would draw the same lines that you do on that issue as well. And I think you have done a good job of treating me respectfully, looking for areas of agreement.

This is a good analogy for the trans issue, I think. You can't bludgeon me into agreeing with you. We have discussed what Scripture says, we have discussed our life experiences, I respect your faith, I see your real concern. Perhaps one of us will convince the other over time. More likely not. But if we respect each other and are good to each other, the odds are better.

I also draw lines when it comes to personal friendships and events I will attend. I have a friend who plans to marry his girlfriend, and I fully expect to be invited to the wedding and have to explain to him (and it will be no surprise to him) that I can't come due to my objections to the relationship. I'm fully willing to be courteous and professional with business acquaintances and neighbors and even family in these kinds of situations, but there is a limit to how much I will reach out to them on a personal level. I don't really want myself or my family to spend a lot of time in their company just for friendship purposes. For purposes of outreach, yes, but there's a difference between reaching out to someone and relishing their company.

I draw those same kinds of lines.

I realize this might be considered offensive to some people, but if a person doesn't know how to respect other's principles, then they should not expect others to respect theirs, either.

I'm not offended by your beliefs on D&R. But some people would be. I suspect the same holds for trans people - some people will be able to accept our views and disagree with them, others will be offended by them. I think we have to get used to the fact that some people will find our beliefs offensive.

Without using it as an excuse to be offensive ...

[Ken]

To some people, that means that I do not accept "who they are", this is their identity. And this is the paradox: my identity is rooted in an understanding of God and of me as a created being in God's good will, my body is very much my body, and I cannot be who I am and use THEIR worldview as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible.

I have both Muslim and Hindu neighbors. I believe in my heart that they are bound by superstition and false beliefs. I cannot be who I am and use THEIR world view as the basis for my understanding. Our world views are not compatible. How do you suggest that I live my life and relate to my neighbors?

[Sudsy]

I agree with looking at how Jesus was with sinners of all sorts. The religious people of His day, the Pharisees in particular, had a very hard time on Jesus involvement with sinners. They thought Jesus should 'come out from among them and be separate' and one of their criticisms was Him being a 'friend of sinners'. But Jesus said that He didn't come to save the righteous but sinners.

I believe if we are to be mission involved we must go to uncomfortable settings and be around uncomfortable people. I would rather have a reputation of being a Jesus follower using His examples than a religious person with various boundaries to maintain some kind of holiness reputation regarding those I do not want to be around.

Like Jesus how willing am I to take the criticisms of other Christians and religious people to reach out to the worst of sinners. Or am I more concerned with my reputation that might be mis-understood by others as to my involvement in the sinning that I am around.

I find the recent case involving Alistair Begg being a prime example as to how far one believes a Christian should go to reaching the lost. The majority of preachers are calling Alistair out on his advice to a lady and it reminds me of how Jesus was called out too on His ways of being around sinners. I really wonder just how Jesus would handle that situation. But then again, if I really believe that the Holy Spirit is living within me and will guide me in the way I need to go, then I really don't need to figure these things out in my own reasonings, do I ?

[steve-in-kville]

I believe in treating people with courtesy and respect including those that I fundamentally disagree with. For example in this thread Josh and Bootstrap are in marriages that I could not accept as legitimate due to my religious beliefs, but I hope both of them could say that over the years that we have conversed online that I have tried my best to be respectful of their views. That extends to many spheres of life such as the workplace, online forums, neighbors, family, acquaintances, and etc.

But I do draw lines, and the most obvious place is church. I could not conscientiously be a part of the same church with people who are transgendered, homosexual, divorced & remarried with first partner still living, and many other things that are morally objectionable to me.

I also draw lines when it comes to personal friendships and events I will attend. I have a friend who plans to marry his girlfriend, and I fully expect to be invited to the wedding and have to explain to him (and it will be no surprise to him) that I can't come due to my objections to the relationship. I'm fully willing to be courteous and professional with business acquaintances and neighbors and even family in these kinds of situations, but there is a limit to how much I will reach out to them on a personal level. I don't really want myself or my family to spend a lot of time in their company just for friendship purposes. For purposes of outreach, yes, but there's a difference between reaching out to someone and relishing their company.

I realize this might be considered offensive to some people, but if a person doesn't know how to respect other's principles, then they should not expect others to respect theirs, either.

I like Mike's reply. Basically keep professional and respectful, but at a healthy distance.

[Josh]

Do you have some examples that show how you or others have done this well in your own life? Or things you have tried that went wrong? How do you personally approach living in a society where many people may see your views as wrong or even toxic? That's what this thread is for.

I have, but wouldn't be comfortable discussing them on an open forum attached to my name. I'd be glad to tell you lots about it offline if you're interested.

[HondurasKeiser]

Do you have some examples that show how you or others have done this well in your own life? Or things you have tried that went wrong? How do you personally approach living in a society where many people may see your views as wrong or even toxic? That's what this thread is for.

I have, but wouldn't be comfortable discussing them on an open forum attached to my name. I'd be glad to tell you lots about it offline if you're interested.

I feel similarly. I started to write about one experience and then thought better of it as the person I am writing about did not give his consent and it's mostly his story.

[Bootstrap]

Do you have some examples that show how you or others have done this well in your own life? Or things you have tried that went wrong? How do you personally approach living in a society where many people may see your views as wrong or even toxic? That's what this thread is for.

I have, but wouldn't be comfortable discussing them on an open forum attached to my name. I'd be glad to tell you lots about it offline if you're interested.

I feel similarly. I started to write about one experience and then thought better of it as the person I am writing about did not give his consent and it's mostly his story.

Yeah, I am also keeping it very vague. I have a handful of experiences, some with people quite close.

This isn't academic for me. It really is about figuring out how to be loving with people who do not share my world view and find parts of it offensive.