MennoNet.com

Keep in mind, Martin Luther, Menno Simons, loved their Church. They didn’t want to leave.
It’s really hard to be forced away from one’s commitments. “Force” was the operative word in those times.

Today, people don’t face physical execution. However, mental and heart challenges remain, changing habits and expectations, family and community, it remains a big deal, even if not life-threatening. Hopefully, the goal is eternal life-giving.

Much of this is experienced internally, not visible in the public eye. Jesus knows.

Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:13 am I would tend to agree. Generally it takes a crisis to change views or you were apathetic to begin with. I don’t think people tend to change views when they feel stable and secure.

God uses trauma to bring us closer to Him. Gomer was an epic example, God was candid about His intent.

I'm not sure how much we can compare the 16th century Catholicism which the reformers critiqued to the current Catholic church. Before the Reformation Catholics did not think of themselves as Catholic, rather as Christians. Since they have had to define Catholic identify against other western traditions, this is an on going project. In many ways (not all, it's a mixed bag) I feel closer to modern Catholicism as the pomp and power of the middle ages wastes away and the remaining faithful are of the poor and forgotten.

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:11 am I'm not sure how much we can compare the 16th century Catholicism which the reformers critiqued to the current Catholic church. Before the Reformation Catholics did not think of themselves as Catholic, rather as Christians. Since they have had to define Catholic identify against other western traditions, this is an on going project. In many ways (not all, it's a mixed bag) I feel closer to modern Catholicism as the pomp and power of the middle ages wastes away and the remaining faithful are of the poor and forgotten.

I remember from books and pamphlets that I read in the 80s and early 90s how despised the Catholic church was by evangelicals, some of whom taught that it was the beast or antichrist of Revelation. I think that evangelical Protestants these days are much more likely to find common cause with Catholics than they were 30 years ago, partly due to politics and party due to reasons you mention. It's also hard for evangelicals to point to the corruption of the Catholic church without pointing three fingers back at their own scandals.

mike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:19 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:11 am I'm not sure how much we can compare the 16th century Catholicism which the reformers critiqued to the current Catholic church. Before the Reformation Catholics did not think of themselves as Catholic, rather as Christians. Since they have had to define Catholic identify against other western traditions, this is an on going project. In many ways (not all, it's a mixed bag) I feel closer to modern Catholicism as the pomp and power of the middle ages wastes away and the remaining faithful are of the poor and forgotten.

I remember from books and pamphlets that I read in the 80s and early 90s how despised the Catholic church was by evangelicals, some of whom taught that it was the beast or antichrist of Revelation. I think that evangelical Protestants these days are much more likely to find common cause with Catholics than they were 30 years ago, partly due to politics and party due to reasons you mention. It's also hard for evangelicals to point to the corruption of the Catholic church without pointing three fingers back at their own scandals.

Another interesting sidenote: Billy Graham was a personal friend of Pope John Paul II. The two had quite a bit in common and met together often.

mike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:19 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:11 am I'm not sure how much we can compare the 16th century Catholicism which the reformers critiqued to the current Catholic church. Before the Reformation Catholics did not think of themselves as Catholic, rather as Christians. Since they have had to define Catholic identify against other western traditions, this is an on going project. In many ways (not all, it's a mixed bag) I feel closer to modern Catholicism as the pomp and power of the middle ages wastes away and the remaining faithful are of the poor and forgotten.

I remember from books and pamphlets that I read in the 80s and early 90s how despised the Catholic church was by evangelicals, some of whom taught that it was the beast or antichrist of Revelation.

I think that evangelical Protestants these days are much more likely to find common cause with Catholics than they were 30 years ago, partly due to politics and party due to reasons you mention. It's also hard for evangelicals to point to the corruption of the Catholic church without pointing three fingers back at their own scandals.

i’m pretty sure this was a 2-way street .. strongly so.
even in my young life, largely protected from it, i was aware of deep antagonism on both sides, probably more “formal” on the Catholic side. i was in public school with all sorts of Protestants, Catholics, and non-Christians. We did well, but there was no kum-bah-ya.

today’s lens of ecumenism has altered a lot in Christianity, not just wrt Catholicism, but they are not an exception.
https://pluralism.org/the-ecumenical-movement

i’d prefer these interesting bunny trails be discussed in ..

See P.4 / Video: A Lamp in the Dark
viewtopic.php?t=3138&start=30

mike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:19 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:11 am I'm not sure how much we can compare the 16th century Catholicism which the reformers critiqued to the current Catholic church. Before the Reformation Catholics did not think of themselves as Catholic, rather as Christians. Since they have had to define Catholic identify against other western traditions, this is an on going project. In many ways (not all, it's a mixed bag) I feel closer to modern Catholicism as the pomp and power of the middle ages wastes away and the remaining faithful are of the poor and forgotten.

I remember from books and pamphlets that I read in the 80s and early 90s how despised the Catholic church was by evangelicals, some of whom taught that it was the beast or antichrist of Revelation. I think that evangelical Protestants these days are much more likely to find common cause with Catholics than they were 30 years ago, partly due to politics and party due to reasons you mention. It's also hard for evangelicals to point to the corruption of the Catholic church without pointing three fingers back at their own scandals.

The culture wars have redrawn the lines and put them on the same side.

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:38 am

mike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:19 am

barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:11 am I'm not sure how much we can compare the 16th century Catholicism which the reformers critiqued to the current Catholic church. Before the Reformation Catholics did not think of themselves as Catholic, rather as Christians. Since they have had to define Catholic identify against other western traditions, this is an on going project. In many ways (not all, it's a mixed bag) I feel closer to modern Catholicism as the pomp and power of the middle ages wastes away and the remaining faithful are of the poor and forgotten.

I remember from books and pamphlets that I read in the 80s and early 90s how despised the Catholic church was by evangelicals, some of whom taught that it was the beast or antichrist of Revelation. I think that evangelical Protestants these days are much more likely to find common cause with Catholics than they were 30 years ago, partly due to politics and party due to reasons you mention. It's also hard for evangelicals to point to the corruption of the Catholic church without pointing three fingers back at their own scandals.

The culture wars have redrawn the lines and put them on the same side.

There’s loss of memory, plus, sheer ignorance. Few Bible readers, Catholic or Protestant.
This was discussed quite a lot on MD.

mike wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:12 am We have good friends who made the journey from Catholic to Evangelical to Anabaptist. They grew up in a strongly Catholic area and family culture, including the large family ethos. I think that the Catholic priest scandal-ridden era (locally and nationally) had a strong impact on their seeking other faith traditions. Among other things.

^^Thanks, mike. This is closer to the topic.

I th8nk you are missing my po8nt. I am making no judgments about anyone converting from or to any group.
My point simply is drawing conclusions about “Catholics who converted” is simply doubly inaccurate.

NOT using the definition any Catholic that converts isn’t really Catholic. Rather, recognize a serious Catholic led to convert is quite different from a ethnic Catholic who converted. Many of the ex Catholics I met in such circles were quite critical of Catholicism and equally lacked knowledge of Catholicism.

I would observe some of my Jewish friends are similar. Some are quite serious about their Judaism. Others simply born to it and know little. They aren’t the same group of people.