Catholic to Anabaptist

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
temporal1
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by temporal1 »

JayP:
.. I would observe some of my Jewish friends are similar. Some are quite serious about their Judaism. Others simply born to it and know little. They aren’t the same group of people.
i think i follow your thinking, and i don’t disagree wiith it, however, for purposes of this topic, it’s not a factor.

It’s a factor for Jesus, and, it occurs in all denoms, including Anabaptist. Genuine convicted faith is (usually) a process, a journey.

i’m not going to question Stephen Russell or Samantha Trenkamp or Judas M about their Catholic experience.
They each describe themselves as former Catholics, now Anabaptist. That’s enough for this topic.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

temporal1 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:50 pm
JayP:
.. I would observe some of my Jewish friends are similar. Some are quite serious about their Judaism. Others simply born to it and know little. They aren’t the same group of people.
i think i follow your thinking, and i don’t disagree wiith it, however, for purposes of this topic, it’s not a factor.

It’s a factor for Jesus, and, it occurs in all denoms, including Anabaptist. Genuine convicted faith is (usually) a process, a journey.

i’m not going to question Stephen Russell or Samantha Trenkamp or Judas M about their Catholic experience.
They each describe themselves as former Catholics, now Anabaptist. That’s enough for this topic.
I would say that I have a fairly decent knowledge about Catholicism, and recognized its intrinsic flaws. It depends on you accepting the whole line "whatever we say is truth" from the institution. I saw way too much to believe that. About 1/4 of my christian friends are ex-catholic. The behavior of the institutional Catholic Church here is so scandalous, that they are closing churches, and bankrupt. Trying to de-legitimize people who leave catholicism, and saying"they just do not understand" is flawed reasoning. We left because we DO understand.
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temporal1
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by temporal1 »

i have Protestant friends who know nothing of the Reformation, esp Martin Luther, and, Anabaptists.
They are kinda shocked to learn any of the history. Some surprise me, they know so little. Or nothing.

There were those questioning the Catholic Church long before the 1500’s.
Specifically, monks who could read and had access to scriptures.

The thing in common was reading then realizing what was written didn’t always match Church words+actions.
In today’s western mindset, a pretty basic concept. From what i’ve read, i’m not aware any intended to undermine their Church.
They sought for the Church to follow scriptures. To our modern mind, not revolutionary.

It was a grave threat. Monumental. Life-threatening.

i have to imagine it was the state that was threatened.
i even (guess) infant baptism might have been a vehicle for the state, i.e., every soul owned+accounted for by the state.
future citizens, taxpayers, men for militaries, etc.

on the human side, i can empathize with parents anxious for their fragile, vulnerable newborns, who often did not live long, to be protected in eternity. they trusted+relied on Church teachings, didn’t have Bibles at their fingertips.

today, we see/hear about the role of church in Russia’s politics. enough to cause one to wince.

the history is interesting. the forgetting of history is a real phenomena.

scriptures urge to avoid excess. 2 Cor 8:15 https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/8-15.htm
in this context, i understand that to mean, don’t live in the past, don’t be ignorant of it, either.
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NedFlanders
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by NedFlanders »

JayP wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 7:46 pm I th8nk you are missing my po8nt. I am making no judgments about anyone converting from or to any group.
My point simply is drawing conclusions about “Catholics who converted” is simply doubly inaccurate.

NOT using the definition any Catholic that converts isn’t really Catholic. Rather, recognize a serious Catholic led to convert is quite different from a ethnic Catholic who converted. Many of the ex Catholics I met in such circles were quite critical of Catholicism and equally lacked knowledge of Catholicism.

I would observe some of my Jewish friends are similar. Some are quite serious about their Judaism. Others simply born to it and know little. They aren’t the same group of people.
It may not be that it is missed as much as it is dismissed. You can generalize and say what you may but you don’t know your complete audience here or the background of some that may be deeper in Catholicism than your own. I understand what you are saying and agree to an extent but some of your comments are not reality in some deep Catholics and ex-Catholics I know. The attitude that “I know better than you,” as it comes across really doesn’t help to convince of your point coupled with for example my own experience as mentioned.
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by NedFlanders »

How can a Catholic regard the new birth by baptizing babies?

And how can a born again person not choose to be baptized and accept their infant baptism?

Would not that mean any person baptized as a baby need to be re-baptized if they become born again?
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mike
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by mike »

Edsel Burdge wrote about an early Anabaptist defense of the legitimacy of the Anabaptist congregations in a recent Faith Builder’s newsletter:

https://www.fbep.org/blog/dirk-philips- ... -a-church/
Dirk Philips: What Makes A Church?

About a year and a half ago, I had a conversation with a friend who had left a plain Anabaptist community to join the Roman Catholic Church. Unlike Anabaptist-Catholic discourse in the sixteenth century, our discussion was cordial and respectful. At one point, he challenged me, “Anabaptism is only five hundred years old. Where was your church before that? Catholicism goes back to the Apostles.”

My friend’s argument was built on the idea of apostolic succession, whereby the church is perpetuated through an unbroken line of ordination from the time of the apostles to the current Catholic bishops. If one accepts the premise of apostolic succession, there is really no counter-argument. For as my friend pointed out, despite Thielman Van Braght’s attempt to show an unbroken line of those “defenseless Christians who baptized upon confession of faith,” the historical record gets a bit sketchy at places. Ironically, this sketchiness is due to Roman Catholicism’s ruthless and violent suppression of dissent during the millennium before the beginnings of the Anabaptist movement.

However, does one have to accept the Roman Catholic premise? The early Anabaptists thought not. For them, legitimacy lay elsewhere. One of the clearest and best developed arguments for the validity of the early Anabaptist congregations is found in The Sending of Preachers (1559), by Dirk Philips (1504-1568).

Dirk and his brother Obbe were early converts to Anabaptism in the Netherlands, joining the movement before the better-known Menno Simons. Obbe led a small group who refused to make common cause with the violent Anabaptist kingdom in Műnster. After the fall of Műnster in 1535, Obbe gathered the remnants together into congregations and appointed Menno Simons and Dirk as co-elders. However, Obbe began to have doubts about the legitimacy of his calling because he had been appointed to leadership by Jan Matthijs, later one of the leaders at Műnster. Obbe abandoned Anabaptism for Spiritualism.

Spiritualism emphasized inward transformation and holy living. While Spiritualists believed that the church had been corrupted, they were skeptical of attempts to outwardly reform or restore it. They advocated inward focus while conforming to whatever state-sponsored church was in power. Caspar Schwenkfeld and Sebastian Franck were prominent Spiritualists. Franck argued that if the church was to be restored, it had to be validated by miraculous signs and wonders as in the of days of the apostles, or from a living voice from heaven, as with Elijah. Dirk also tackled this question in The Sending of Preachers.

Dirk asked, “But which is the congregation of Christ, which has received such power from Christ, not only to choose teachers, but what is more, to bind and loose, to forgive sins, and to retain them?” He answered:

Scripture testifies clearly at many places, namely, that it is a gathering of believers, that is of living saints and born-again persons who believe the Word of God entirely, teach the same correctly, bear fruit with it, practice the sacraments of Christ fittingly, correctly maintain the ban, walk in love, and conduct and carry out all things according to the gospel.

Just as in the time of the apostles, Dirk argued, Christ’s church is brought into being and continues in Christ through the activity of the Holy Spirit and the preaching of the Word of God. In answer to the question, “Where is this congregation?” Dirk wrote:
The heavenly Jerusalem is everywhere, wherever the Word of God is rightly taught, believed, and kept, and the sacraments of Christ are used correctly according to the Word.

Where God’s Word is correctly taught, believed, and kept, for they are Christ’s disciples who have His Word, believe, and keep it. Where now such disciples are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them. But if Christ is among them, then they are always a congregation of Christ. If a congregation of Christ, then they must also have the same power which Christ gave His congregation.

If any organization fails to be guided by the Spirit, to abide by the Word, and if it does not correctly practice believers’ baptism and the Lord’s Supper as a meal of remembrance, it ceases to be Christ’s church, whatever its claims of physical descent from the apostles.

Thus, for Dirk, legitimacy is founded not in “apostolic succession” but in the gathered body of believers who “through the power of Jesus Christ and the testimony of the Holy Spirit” can call and appoint its teachers and ministers. These leaders, Dirk wrote, “must be faithful according to the example of their Lord and master.” They are known by their unblameable life, by evidencing the fruits of the Spirit, and by leading a Christlike life. Further, they “preach repentance to the people (even as Christ and the apostles did) and teach them, out of the law, God’s wrath and severe judgment upon sin.” Then “out of the gospel” they instruct their hearers, “to know God the Father in His eternal love and fathomless mercy, Christ Jesus in His grace and merits, through the cooperation the Holy Spirit.” They preside over the right use of the sacraments and they make sure the ban is used for correction.

As far as the claims of both Catholics and Protestants, Dirk held as a “certain and undeniable” fact “that the Holy Spirit sends out no drunkards, nor adulterers, nor misers, nor servants of idols, nor hypocrites, who dissemble for the sake of the belly, and make merchandise with God’s Word.” He found plenty of examples of the like among both groups. In a poke at the Protestant clergy, Dirk wrote that as false teachers, they preach “even to the unrepentant nothing but grace” thus falsely “proclaiming peace to them.” Further both Catholics and Protestants practiced infant baptism and served communion to those who showed no signs of true repentance and amendment of life. Neither did they hesitate to use the sword of persecution. According to Dirk, they were nothing but “false Christians and false prophets.”

What then did Dirk have to say in response to the Spiritualist contention that the restoration of the church had to be signaled by miracles or a voice from heaven? No doubt, when Dirk heard this argument, it reminded him of the supposed visions and prophecies that gave rise to the Anabaptist kingdom at Münster. He was having nothing of that. He wrote:

God does not now, at the present time, speak with us through an external voice from heaven, nor through visions and dreams as happened in the Old Testament, but He speaks with us through His Son, Jesus Christ, and Christ speaks with us through his Word. And the Word of Christ is Spirit and life. Whenever Christ now grants and impresses his living Word in someone’s heart, and thereby calls, that person is without any doubt called of the Lord through His Word. But whereby one shall know that anyone is thus called of God through the living Word and through the Spirit of Christ… namely, that he speaks God’s Word truly, bears fruit, and seeks the honor of Christ and the salvation of souls with wholehearted zeal.

Instead of waiting for a heavenly voice, Christians can move forth in confidence that by heeding the Scriptures and following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they can “conduct themselves according to the practice and procedure of the first churches.” Furthermore, Dirk reminded his readers of Jesus’ words, that a “wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign.” He also warned that just as the magicians of Egypt did, false teachers can sometimes perform signs.

In the end, no rationale overruled God’s Word correctly taught, believed, and kept. Wherever this was present, so was the congregation of Christ.
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
temporal1
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by temporal1 »

^^mike, thanks for thinking of adding this from EB.
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JayP
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by JayP »

This thread is a great help n nights I do not feel sleepy. :clap:
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mike
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by mike »

JayP wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 5:30 pm This thread is a great help n nights I do not feel sleepy. :clap:
happy to be of service
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Remember the prisoners, as though you were in prison with them, and the mistreated, as though you yourselves were suffering bodily. -Heb. 13:3
temporal1
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Re: Catholic to Anabaptist

Post by temporal1 »

mike wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:33 am
JayP wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2024 5:30 pm This thread is a great help n nights I do not feel sleepy. :clap:
happy to be of service
i suspect this is one of the keys to MD-MN’s longevity. not flashy.
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