Anabaptists and the Supernatural

[Sudsy]

This is a thread to explore what is happening in various Anabaptist churches here in North America that can be described as supernatural.

Things such as miraculous healings, speaking and interpreting other tongues, Holy Spirit baptism to empower believers for service, to witness, for spiritual warfare, and for boldness in their testimonies (see Acts 1:8; 4:19–20, 29–31; 6:8–10; 1 Corinthians 2:4). Other supernatural gifts of the Spirit that are beyond natural abilities. Those sort of things.

Some questions to help explore and not necessary to directly address -

- What occurs in your Anabaptist church that you would regard as supernatural ?
- Do you believe God still operates supernaturally ?
- Do you think many if not most Anabaptists have some fear of the supernatural ? (i.e. hearing of some weird happenings of some Charismatics)
- Is the lack of operating in the supernatural a reason for slow growth ?

I have read where some early days of Anabaptism some were quite charismatic - 'Within the inspirationist wing of the Anabaptist movement, it was not unusual for charismatic manifestations to appear, such as dancing, falling under the power of the Holy Spirit, "prophetic processions" (at Zurich in 1525, at Munster in 1534 and at Amsterdam in 1535), and speaking in tongues.' Is this still happening today in some stream of Anabaptism in North America ? I have heard outside of North America it is and that there is more of an expectation of the supernatural. Is this true ?

[Soloist]

Whatever happened at Munster was not from God.

[Josh]

- What occurs in your Anabaptist church that you would regard as supernatural ?

Lives transformed from ones bound by sin into people who every day, for the rest of their lives, pursue a heavenly kingdom of peace.

- Do you believe God still operates supernaturally ?

Yes.

- Do you think many if not most Anabaptists have some fear of the supernatural ? (i.e. hearing of some weird happenings of some Charismatics)

No. I don't think there is a "fear" of this. There is certainly scepticism of "strange fire" (myself included).

At least in my circles, there is certainly an awareness of the supernatural and an openness to God's power but also cautionary awareness of the supernatural forces of the evil one.

- Is the lack of operating in the supernatural a reason for slow growth ?

No, I don't think that's an adequate explanation.

I have read where some early days of Anabaptism some were quite charismatic - 'Within the inspirationist wing of the Anabaptist movement, it was not unusual for charismatic manifestations to appear, such as dancing, falling under the power of the Holy Spirit, "prophetic processions" (at Zurich in 1525, at Munster in 1534 and at Amsterdam in 1535), and speaking in tongues.' Is this still happening today in some stream of Anabaptism in North America ? I have heard outside of North America it is and that there is more of an expectation of the supernatural. Is this true ?

Münster is generally an inspiration for what not to do, considering that alongside all these supposed prophetic visions, dreams, miracles, etc. there was also the violent use of force and church "leaders" deciding to take other men's wives for themselves.

[steve-in-kville]

- Do you believe God still operates supernaturally ?

Yes.

[MaxPC]

- Do you believe God still operates supernaturally ?

Yes.

Yes.

[ohio jones]

I have read where some early days of Anabaptism some were quite charismatic - 'Within the inspirationist wing of the Anabaptist movement, it was not unusual for charismatic manifestations to appear, such as dancing, falling under the power of the Holy Spirit, "prophetic processions" (at Zurich in 1525, at Munster in 1534 and at Amsterdam in 1535), and speaking in tongues.' Is this still happening today in some stream of Anabaptism in North America ? I have heard outside of North America it is and that there is more of an expectation of the supernatural. Is this true ?

I have not heard of the Naaktloper incident being repeated anywhere after 1535. Not sure that was supernatural, it seems more, um, natural.

[Sudsy]

I agree that there have been and continue to be what is thought to be supernatural occurrences of God and these need to be observed as whether or not these spiritual or carnal happenings are of God. They could be from a spirit leading us into error (satan is the great deceiver) or might be our human spirit that is given way to our flesh and may respond as if our actions and words are supernaturally sourced in God. 1 John 4:1 -

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

And one of the gifts of the Spirit is for that very purpose - 1 Cor 12:10 - ability to distinguish between spirits.

So, do we still need this gift today ? It would seem to me we probably need it more than ever before but that is just my opinion as I observe all the various beliefs and practises that are said to be Holy Spirit directed. In my early years in Pentecostalism, I don't recall much testing of spirits and perhaps it was a view that a very spiritual brother or sister would only speak by the Holy Spirit.

I found this article that I thought was quite good and wonder how others here regard it -

http://www.ephrataministries.org/remnan ... talism.a5w

One quote that especially caught my attention regarding religious zeal -

But the Holy Spirit does a work of transformation on the inside that cannot be imitated or worked up in the flesh. Great enthusiasm propels zealots onward and they mistakenly believe that they are being compelled by the Spirit of God, when in fact they are compelled only by their religious zeal.

[Ken]

Honestly, pretty much everything about Christianity (or religion) is supernatural. Without the "Super-" all you have left is just the natural world. Ordinary daily prayer is supernatural. Being guided by your conscience and holy spirit in your daily life is supernatural.

What you are really talking about is inexplicable occurrences or miracles that don't have a natural explanation such as speaking in tongues or faith healing. I'm personally skeptical of most or all of that stuff. I think the instances of God violating the rules of the natural world to conduct miracles are very few and far between. Even in the Bible (which spans more than 2,000 years) there are very few miracles mentioned. They are extremely uncommon.

I grew up in the mainstream Mennonite church which ultimately became MC-USA and there was very little talk about modern miracles and certainly nothing like speaking in tongues or faith healing. Miracles and what you are calling supernatural events were mostly confined to the Bible. And people tended to look skeptically at that sort of thing. But I did have relatives from more conservative churches who were much more into it. Especially faith healing when my grandfather was going through a long slow illness. One of my aunts fell deeply into a faith healing congregation that was some sort of fringe conservative Anabaptist group and was trying to insert them into the family to the annoyance of everyone else, especially my mother who was a nurse.

[barnhart]

Everyone is up against the supernatural continually. Secularists imagine this is not so by pretending that having a little knowledge and the ability to predict phenomena means it's not supernatural. If rain comes from weather formations which can be observed, there is no need for prayer or rain dances. But this belies the obvious, much of the natural universe is beyond our control and lies in the hand of a god whether we think of that god as a person or a force or chance. Even attempts to secularized the things we know the most, ourselves, has proven impossible. Time and time again such efforts are forced back into quazi religious explanations like human rights, ethics, purpose of living, and hope.

This drive to explain, categorize and systematize the unknowable seeps into Christianity almost as easily as into secularism. A lot of the health, wealth, healing and showy supernaturalism in Christian sects could be seen in this light, attempts to reach into the supernatural to own or control it in some way. And the cold rationalism of some Christian traditions is not that far from a functional atheism, when we say we believe but our actions are functionally agnostic. I have found myself drawn toward both poles from time to time.

To know without seeing, to believe without clear proof, to act without guarantee, this is not easy.

Earth's crammed with heaven
And every bush afire from God
But only he who sees takes off his shoes
The rest sit round and pluck blackberries

-E. Browning

[Sudsy]

Growing up in an evangelical Pentecostal home, my parents had a strong belief that God still works today supernaturally as their own born again experience was proof in itself of God making a supernatural transformation in their lives. As Josh said -

Lives transformed from ones bound by sin into people who every day, for the rest of their lives, pursue a heavenly kingdom of peace.

For example, when my father and one uncle who were heavy smokers were born again they immediately and supernaturally were delivered by God miraculously from their need to smoke. No patch or any other means but God taking away their desire to smoke. Real initial transformation.

My uncle was what some called a 'chain smoker' as he had more than one cigarette lit at the same time, had one of the largest cigarette sales in our city in his local store. When he became a Christian and God took his habit away, he removed all the cigarettes in his store which was a good chunk of his sales and he went through considerable persecution from the public for it.

And this is just one example of the supernatural happenings throughout their lives. I could share many more. This was not a matter of following some rules or attempting to be religious but rather a miracle as God took away their desire to smoke. My father, the next day after he was born again, lit up a cigarette out of habit and his first taste of it was so repulsive that he never smoked again from that day on. Just one of the many changes that he immediately experienced when he was born again.

So, I know of many testimonies of God working in believer's lives in ways there are no natural explanations for and I believe that is one way He reveals His power and care for us. I also am aware of the many charlatans there are in Christian circles. Mostly amongst the charismatic types that are open to God working supernaturally. Jesus said at judgment time there will be those who claim to do supernatural things in His name and Jesus will say depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you. Matthew 7:23

What is concerning to me is that there appears today, in many churches, to be a way of Christ following that has little expectation of an original Anabaptist belief in the new birth. I believe it is quite possible to grow up in a church setting that requires one to live according to the rules and their experience is one of obeying what the church believes about obeying Christ and yet not be born again. And one can see these presentations of 'getting saved' on TV where one can say a little prayer (repeat after me) and told that now they have been born again. If there is not a new set of desires that come with this confession of faith, they may have just taken on some form of religion that is called Christianity but is far from receiving a new heart.

Just saying that when the supernatural work of salvation is not a new walk with the Lord desiring to know more of Him and what He desires for us, then it is just religion and not experiencing the life that the new birth brings. I remember doing door-to-door evangelism and it was amazing to me how many church going people were trusting in their religious performance, water baptism, church membership and/or other religious acts when it came to what they were trusting on for eternal life. They had not put a saving trust in Jesus to save them and make them into new creations.

One thing that I do appreciate about our local MB church is the invitation they give for people to come to the front for counselling and prayer over whatever is going on in their Christian lives and also for those who desire to initially become Christ followers. And sometimes these seeking salvation have come from Anabaptist churches. I have seen it more than once that people can be raised in or have joined a Christian church and have never experienced the new birth. However, even for churches who do provide opportunity for people to be born again I think the concept of what the new birth should result in has low expectations. A new born needs lots of special attention and when there is not something like 'a new converts class' or an assigned tutor to the new convert, there is a questionable understanding of the new birth and the feeding required of a new spiritual infant.

Well, I agree with those who see being born again is the main supernatural, life changing event that begins this new walk with the Lord.