Verity wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:59 pmI hesitated over the "middle class". My family are not billionaires, but there are several millionaires. There is a level of courtesy and respect that I know doesn't exist everywhere.
So are mine.
They aren't high-highfalutin folks, just decent principled people. They are as a whole very forgiving individuals. Did it make a differences that mot of these divorces were philosophical rather than moral?
Same with my relatives, too. (Maybe some were moral but I didn’t know the details.)
I don't know, but could surmise it did. Two intelligent stable people concluding their goals differ and it would be in their best interest to separate versus two with broken trust? It still was painful. Emotionally and financially. None of us in the next generation wanted to repeat that process. It is noteworthy that most of my cousins have long-term stable marriages. I attribute that to the fact that our parents realized how costly divorce was for all of us and helped us avoid the mistakes they made when choosing a marriage partner.
I’m not sure what you mean by all that. The divorces are still bad, and no, they aren’t actually as amicable as you think they are. Some people just don’t air their dirty laundry far and wide and try to keep things civil.
In no way am I suggesting that divorce is okay. I do believe we can make the best of less than ideal situations and that respect and forgiveness foster harmonious relationships even when bad things have happened.
I think you don’t have the whole picture. Divorces don’t create respect, forgiveness, nor foster harmonious relationships.
Okay, Josh, I'll try one more time to clarify. I was the child in one of those divorces. You said yourself the children suffer the most. I was old enough to participate in the hearings, I knew most of the details. In another of those cases, it was my best friend. In no way do I suggest the divorce was amicable. It was costly, it was painful- I said that in plain English.
What I am saying is that the pain and ugliness don't have to continue. My parents made mistakes. They are honest about it. They made sure their children knew what those mistakes were, what they cost, how to avoid the same pitfalls. I honor them for that. I value my step parents. They are wonderful people and add to my life. I don't need to punish them because of what happened. Do I wish my parents were still together and I didn't have to explain to my own children what happened and why? YES! But I can't change the past. What I can do is choose to respect my parents for what they did do right, for teaching me a better way and forgive them. We can have peaceful happy family times together, despite the brokenness. I don't have to continually harp on what could have been, because it isn't going to be.
Divorce does not create respect, forgiveness or harmonious relationships. Frankly, that you would twist what I wrote into that is a very sad reflection on yourself. Slow down, actually read what people write before responding with ridiculous assumptions. What I wrote was that when bad things happen- such as divorce- it is possible through God's grace to forgive and still treat each other with respect.
Josh, in my opinion you are the one missing the whole picture. I'm sorry you have a compulsion to tear apart sincere statements in so many threads. It doesn't help people be willing to share and grow together. I'm signing off now, so you are welcome to have the last word.
From the failing parent side, I agree with you Verity, the past is the past and as having failed marriages I needed to move on from past failings. God puts our sins in the sea of His forgetfulness never to be remembered against us again. Being justified is as if we never sinned in the first place. The road can be rough as not everyone involved can let go of the past but God provided us the Holy Spirit to empower us to do what is humanly difficult or even impossible.
I have had two divorces and three marriages. My second wife is a born again Christian and occasionally we run into each other in a grocery store or some other public place. We stop and have a chat at those times to see how God is working in our lives and have zero resentments toward each other. She had a second marriage breakdown also. Life can get pretty messy and some of us have been through some real tough times. It is amazing what God can do if we allow Him to and not hold unto the past. There will always be a few Christians who can't accept the 'fresh starts' that God gives us and I am so thankful at times that they are not God. His mercy goes far beyond what we could ever imagine.
So, if you are still reading this thread my current wife now of more than 40 years marriage is a believer and we share daily our life in Christ. This was her second marriage. And even we failed parents can live joy filled lives totally forgiven of our past failings as God does what only He can do.
Last edited by Sudsy on Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:14 pmI also don’t believe children have any duty whatsoever to “honour” step parents. They aren’t parents. They are simply someone their mother or father decided to enter into a divorce and remarriage with. No child should feel like they have to honour a stepparent any more than any other human being on earth.
Divorce is only one of many different reasons for why a child might have a step parent.
And yes, if the child is living in a home with a step parent who is supporting the family in all the ways that an adult supports a family: financially, emotionally, and by just being there. Then the child does own them respect and honor.
3 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:14 pmI also don’t believe children have any duty whatsoever to “honour” step parents. They aren’t parents. They are simply someone their mother or father decided to enter into a divorce and remarriage with. No child should feel like they have to honour a stepparent any more than any other human being on earth.
Divorce is only one of many different reasons for why a child might have a step parent.
And yes, if the child is living in a home with a step parent who is supporting the family in all the ways that an adult supports a family: financially, emotionally, and by just being there. Then the child does own them respect and honor.
Divorce or lack of marriage at all is overwhelmingly the reason children have stepparents. It’s rare for parents to die in present day America although it does happen.
My example above was specifically when someone divorces their spouse and marries a new person, Ken. The topic of this thread is divorce. Please stay on topic.
Soloist wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:26 pm
I do believe a child has an obligation to honor those in authority over them regardless of blood ties.
I think a child has zero obligation to “honour” their mother or father’s affair partner that destroyed their parents’ marriage. And the Bible certainly never speaks that they do.
Legally speaking, stepparents aren’t an authority over children either. They are an unrelated intruder who has moved into the house.
Soloist wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:26 pm
I do believe a child has an obligation to honor those in authority over them regardless of blood ties.
I think a child has zero obligation to “honour” their mother or father’s affair partner that destroyed their parents’ marriage. And the Bible certainly never speaks that they do.
Legally speaking, stepparents aren’t an authority over children either. They are an unrelated intruder who has moved into the house.
I don't know where you get this stuff. But it is absolutely not true.
For example, the FAFSA considers stepparent assets when determining student financial aid awards. So the government does actually believe that stepparents have a financial obligation towards the children in the household that they married into.
And if a minor child commits illegal acts within a stepparent household, the step parent can most certainly be held liable.
Same thing when it comes to things like child neglect. If you are a stepparent you don't get off the hook from CPS if you are neglecting a child within your household. You can most certainly be prosecuted for that and many have.
And more commonly it is the woman and children who move into the stepparents house not the other way around.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
In my experience they do not justify as much as they treat the two people inconsistently.
For example, I live near a family where the husband has left to be with another woman. His family is quite powerful and in leadership positions. They feel he still should be allowed to visit the children. His wife should be willing to do whatever it takes to win him back.
But years ago when a wife, who was NMB left, they opposed letting her see the children.
In general, men get all the breaks, but only after preeminent families get the first set of breaks.
That situation is a really painful one, JayP, if it is the same one I'm thinking of. It isn't often that a Mennonite man runs off with a woman from church. What many of us struggle with is that his wife plead her in-laws (in authority) for help and intervention long before her husband left. Some of her children are really struggling with anger and bitterness, understandably so. Thank God there are a few families there who truly care and are doing all they can to support the wife and children even though it places them in a difficult position church wise.
Verity wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:46 am
That situation is a really painful one, JayP, if it is the same one I'm thinking of. It isn't often that a Mennonite man runs off with a woman from church. What many of us struggle with is that his wife plead her in-laws (in authority) for help and intervention long before her husband left. Some of her children are really struggling with anger and bitterness, understandably so. Thank God there are a few families there who truly care and are doing all they can to support the wife and children even though it places them in a difficult position church wise.
Thank you for you thoughts, Sudsy and Ken.
The exact same situation happened in my own circles too:
- The man was more “connected”, in particular having a few family members who always took his side. Her family was way far away in Canada at a more conservative church.
- There were likewise pleadings that went unanswered.
- The children have struggled with bitterness and anger - and understandably so. They all left the conservative church circles although 3 eventually returned, praise God.
- Being supportive of the wife at all put one on bad place church wise.
- He stands accused of perverted behaviour by over 100 women. Despite this, the response of his supporters is it must be his wife’s fault for not taking care of him enough because why else would he do that?
I eventually made the decision to leave and go somewhere with more consistent discipline around these matters.
Josh, may I ask your opinion? You stated earlier about a young woman who chose to not eat with immoral people, per the Scriptures. Would you take this stance against church members who you have firsthand knowledge of living in immorality?
This is something I've struggled with personally, not knowing where the line should be. I was told by my bishop at the time to not invite any divorced or remarried individuals to our wedding. We wanted to do what was right, and honored that despite it meaning that hardly any of my family were able to attend. Yet the same bishop sharply rebuked me for "putting distance" between a church member and myself after I honestly (and kindly, I think) addressing his moral failings. The only distance that was there was my declining invitations to his home and choosing to not have him in mine. This was more for the safety of my children than the fact that I could not bear to eat with him. We did indeed eat together at church functions.
Is there a clearly defined answer to these quandaries?
