Another divorce question

[ABC 123]

There should be zero excuses to defend the adulterer.

Divorce is really sad.

As for taking sides, some situations are not easy to remain "neutral". Why should the adulterer get a place at the next family gathering while their discarded spouse is out in the cold?

[RZehr]

Thinking about this due to several situations I am aware of...

If you are a CA and your adult son or daughter lost his/her way and divorced (their spouse), what would your response be? The world says to side with your own child and let the in-law go.

What do you think? In-law is devastated but a faithful Christian. Your own child is an adulterer.

I don’t know what this would be like to be in this situation. And I’m drawing a blank at thinking of anyone in my circles to mentally reference.
But I think I would treat the in law as if the divorce never happened, in terms of welcoming and inviting them around.

[RZehr]

There should be zero excuses to defend the adulterer.

Divorce is really sad.

As for taking sides, some situations are not easy to remain "neutral". Why should the adulterer get a place at the next family gathering while their discarded spouse is out in the cold?

I can’t imagine defending a child who was gay or adulterous. That is a ridiculous thing to do.

I would expect to see sometimes something less than a full throated, roaring and bellowing condemnation from the parents though. But the lack of this, does not mean the same thing as defending.

An adult child should be subjected to church discipline, not parental discipline. So if the church does its job correctly, it shouldn’t matter to the outcome how much defending a parent does.
In fact if the parent doesn’t calm down, they should be expelled too. Our church discipline says: “When a member is excommunicated the members who support such in their wrong doings place themselves under church censure.”

[Verity]

There should be zero excuses to defend the adulterer.

Divorce is really sad.

As for taking sides, some situations are not easy to remain "neutral". Why should the adulterer get a place at the next family gathering while their discarded spouse is out in the cold?

I can’t imagine defending a child who was gay or adulterous. That is a ridiculous thing to do.

I would expect to see sometimes something less than a full throated, roaring and bellowing condemnation from the parents though. But the lack of this, does not mean the same thing as defending.

An adult child should be subjected to church discipline, not parental discipline. So if the church does its job correctly, it shouldn’t matter to the outcome how much defending a parent does.
In fact if the parent doesn’t calm down, they should be expelled too. Our church discipline says: “When a member is excommunicated the members who support such in their wrong doings place themselves under church censure.”

It is ridiculous, but beyond that it can give the wayward one a false assurance that if their family defends them in their sin, God will too. I've watched it with moral offenses time and time again. "They've suffered so much already! Stop adding to it!" is an oft repeated cry. But discipline is supposed to be painful, and hopefully promote change that will prevent eternal punishment.

Divorce is always difficult, no doubt about it. I do know personally of several situations like this where family supported the faithful spouse. Usually the wayward child cut off all ties with the family, so there were not awkward encounters.

It is not cut and dried in the world that family will stand by their child and reject the spouse. There have been numerous divorces and remarriages in my extended family. With the exception of two real rotten eggs, both sides are welcome and expected at family gatherings. The family just expands, not unlike Anabaptist families that remarry after a spouse dies. I recall some tense times just prior to a separation, but typically following that everyone was relieved to move on. A few decades after the divorce and remarriage, no one thinks about it anymore and everyone reminisces happily together about years gone by. It can seem odd to an Anabaptist looking on, but this is the experience of many middle class Americans.

Not saying this is God's plan. I'm only offering the perspective that it isn't always ugly in the world like it is in the church where divorce is thankfully less common.

[Josh]

A few decades after the divorce and remarriage, no one thinks about it anymore and everyone reminisces happily together about years gone by. It can seem odd to an Anabaptist looking on, but this is the experience of many middle class Americans.

As someone with plenty of middle class American relatives, I can state this is not really the case, at least not universally. Decades on, it is still very awkard and it’s never quite clear who should be invited to family gatherings. There is nothing wholesome or positive that comes at all from divorce and remarriage (or fornication with different people) when children are involved.

In the event of no children, sometimes the non-relative just sort of “goes away” and the families never have anything to do with each other again. That is the best outcome that can be hoped for.

[MaxPC]

There should be zero excuses to defend the adulterer.

Divorce is really sad.

As for taking sides, some situations are not easy to remain "neutral". Why should the adulterer get a place at the next family gathering while their discarded spouse is out in the cold?

I can’t imagine defending a child who was gay or adulterous. That is a ridiculous thing to do.

I would expect to see sometimes something less than a full throated, roaring and bellowing condemnation from the parents though. But the lack of this, does not mean the same thing as defending.

An adult child should be subjected to church discipline, not parental discipline. So if the church does its job correctly, it shouldn’t matter to the outcome how much defending a parent does.
In fact if the parent doesn’t calm down, they should be expelled too. Our church discipline says: “When a member is excommunicated the members who support such in their wrong doings place themselves under church censure.”

I agree with both of these statements. While it is not easy for the family from an emotional perspective, I think RZehr hit the proverbial nail with "An adult child should be subjected to church discipline, not parental discipline." Adults are accountable for their own actions

Too often I see parents who try to treat their adult offspring as though they are still children and defend bad behaviors or make excuses for such. A friend of mine calls it "helicopter parenting until death".

[Verity]

A few decades after the divorce and remarriage, no one thinks about it anymore and everyone reminisces happily together about years gone by. It can seem odd to an Anabaptist looking on, but this is the experience of many middle class Americans.

As someone with plenty of middle class American relatives, I can state this is not really the case, at least not universally. Decades on, it is still very awkard and it’s never quite clear who should be invited to family gatherings. There is nothing wholesome or positive that comes at all from divorce and remarriage (or fornication with different people) when children are involved.

In the event of no children, sometimes the non-relative just sort of “goes away” and the families never have anything to do with each other again. That is the best outcome that can be hoped for.

I hesitated over the "middle class". My family are not billionaires, but there are several millionaires. There is a level of courtesy and respect that I know doesn't exist everywhere. They aren't high-highfalutin folks, just decent principled people. They are as a whole very forgiving individuals. Did it make a difference that most of these divorces were philosophical rather than moral? I don't know, but could surmise it did. Two intelligent stable people concluding their goals differ and it would be in their best interest to separate versus two with broken trust? It still was painful. Emotionally and financially. None of us in the next generation wanted to repeat that process. It is noteworthy that most of my cousins have long-term stable marriages. I attribute that to the fact that our parents realized how costly divorce was for all of us and helped us avoid the mistakes they made when choosing a marriage partner.

In no way am I suggesting that divorce is okay. I do believe we can make the best of less than ideal situations and that respect and forgiveness foster harmonious relationships even when bad things have happened.

[Josh]

I hesitated over the "middle class". My family are not billionaires, but there are several millionaires. There is a level of courtesy and respect that I know doesn't exist everywhere.

So are mine.

They aren't high-highfalutin folks, just decent principled people. They are as a whole very forgiving individuals. Did it make a differences that mot of these divorces were philosophical rather than moral?

Same with my relatives, too. (Maybe some were moral but I didn’t know the details.)

I don't know, but could surmise it did. Two intelligent stable people concluding their goals differ and it would be in their best interest to separate versus two with broken trust? It still was painful. Emotionally and financially. None of us in the next generation wanted to repeat that process. It is noteworthy that most of my cousins have long-term stable marriages. I attribute that to the fact that our parents realized how costly divorce was for all of us and helped us avoid the mistakes they made when choosing a marriage partner.

I’m not sure what you mean by all that. The divorces are still bad, and no, they aren’t actually as amicable as you think they are. Some people just don’t air their dirty laundry far and wide and try to keep things civil.

In no way am I suggesting that divorce is okay. I do believe we can make the best of less than ideal situations and that respect and forgiveness foster harmonious relationships even when bad things have happened.

I think you don’t have the whole picture. Divorces don’t create respect, forgiveness, nor foster harmonious relationships.

[Verity]

I hesitated over the "middle class". My family are not billionaires, but there are several millionaires. There is a level of courtesy and respect that I know doesn't exist everywhere.

So are mine.

They aren't high-highfalutin folks, just decent principled people. They are as a whole very forgiving individuals. Did it make a differences that mot of these divorces were philosophical rather than moral?

Same with my relatives, too. (Maybe some were moral but I didn’t know the details.)

I don't know, but could surmise it did. Two intelligent stable people concluding their goals differ and it would be in their best interest to separate versus two with broken trust? It still was painful. Emotionally and financially. None of us in the next generation wanted to repeat that process. It is noteworthy that most of my cousins have long-term stable marriages. I attribute that to the fact that our parents realized how costly divorce was for all of us and helped us avoid the mistakes they made when choosing a marriage partner.

I’m not sure what you mean by all that. The divorces are still bad, and no, they aren’t actually as amicable as you think they are. Some people just don’t air their dirty laundry far and wide and try to keep things civil.

In no way am I suggesting that divorce is okay. I do believe we can make the best of less than ideal situations and that respect and forgiveness foster harmonious relationships even when bad things have happened.

I think you don’t have the whole picture. Divorces don’t create respect, forgiveness, nor foster harmonious relationships.

Okay, Josh, I'll try one more time to clarify. I was the child in one of those divorces. You said yourself the children suffer the most. I was old enough to participate in the hearings, I knew most of the details. In another of those cases, it was my best friend. In no way do I suggest the divorce was amicable. It was costly, it was painful- I said that in plain English.

What I am saying is that the pain and ugliness don't have to continue. My parents made mistakes. They are honest about it. They made sure their children knew what those mistakes were, what they cost, how to avoid the same pitfalls. I honor them for that. I value my step parents. They are wonderful people and add to my life. I don't need to punish them because of what happened. Do I wish my parents were still together and I didn't have to explain to my own children what happened and why? YES! But I can't change the past. What I can do is choose to respect my parents for what they did do right, for teaching me a better way and forgive them. We can have peaceful happy family times together, despite the brokenness. I don't have to continually harp on what could have been, because it isn't going to be.

Divorce does not create respect, forgiveness or harmonious relationships. Frankly, that you would twist what I wrote into that is a very sad reflection on yourself. Slow down, actually read what people write before responding with ridiculous assumptions. What I wrote was that when bad things happen- such as divorce- it is possible through God's grace to forgive and still treat each other with respect.

Josh, in my opinion you are the one missing the whole picture. I'm sorry you have a compulsion to tear apart sincere statements in so many threads. It doesn't help people be willing to share and grow together. I'm signing off now, so you are welcome to have the last word.

[Josh]

Okay, Josh, I'll try one more time to clarify. I was the child in one of those divorces. You said yourself the children suffer the most. I was old enough to participate in the hearings, I knew most of the details. In another of those cases, it was my best friend. In no way do I suggest the divorce was amicable. It was costly, it was painful- I said that in plain English.

What I am saying is that the pain and ugliness don't have to continue. My parents made mistakes. They are honest about it. They made sure their children knew what those mistakes were, what they cost, how to avoid the same pitfalls. I honor them for that. I value my step parents. They are wonderful people and add to my life. I don't need to punish them because of what happened. Do I wish my parents were still together and I didn't have to explain to my own children what happened and why? YES! But I can't change the past. What I can do is choose to respect my parents for what they did do right, for teaching me a better way and forgive them. We can have peaceful happy family times together, despite the brokenness. I don't have to continually harp on what could have been, because it isn't going to be.

Divorce does not create respect, forgiveness or harmonious relationships. Frankly, that you would twist what I wrote into that is a very sad reflection on yourself. Slow down, actually read what people write before responding with ridiculous assumptions. What I wrote was that when bad things happen- such as divorce- it is possible through God's grace to forgive and still treat each other with respect.

Josh, in my opinion you are the one missing the whole picture. I'm sorry you have a compulsion to tear apart sincere statements in so many threads. It doesn't help people be willing to share and grow together. I'm signing off now, so you are welcome to have the last word.

I am concerned about how casually you expressed that divorce “could” have harmonious family gatherings. It needs to be clarified that this barely ever happens and it’s not even a reasonable expectation, and I don’t want to see some wife or husband who has been cheated on and abused, and then divorced, somehow expected to carry the burden to make “harmonious” family gatherings.

I also don’t believe children have any duty whatsoever to “honour” step parents. They aren’t parents. They are simply someone their mother or father decided to enter into a divorce and remarriage with. No child should feel like they have to honour a stepparent any more than any other human being on earth.

If you can be at peace with your stepparents that is wonderful - just like being at peace with neighbours, or an enemy. But no child should feel like they have to respect an affair partner who destroyed their parents’ marriage.

Indeed, for a faithful Anabaptist where the parent and new step parent pretend to be Christians… it would be biblical to do what young woman of God did: she informed this wayward soul she would not even eat with him, per that the Bible tells us not to even eat with a sexually immoral person.