The immorality of engagement rings

[Sudsy]

If one believes the Holy Spirit is speaking to you about something you should or should not do, then live by those convictions. However, to try to impress your convictions and scripture interpretations on others telling them they need to follow your convictions or they are immoral or committing some other sin, then, I believe, you are making a judgment that is not yours to make.

The problem, I believe, with some groups of Christians, is they try to do the work of the Holy Spirit and push their own convictions on others. You have expressed your convictions on this matter, now allow the Holy Spirit to convict or not convict others in His timing and in His way.

I could go through all the different kinds of foods I eat, the appliances I use, the materials used to build with, etc, etc. and try to determine whether or not somewhere in the process of these things existing there is not sinful ways occuring. Thankfully, we don't need to do that if we believe the Holy Spirit, who lives within every believer, will guide them if they listen for His voice.

I know many Christian women who wear a wedding ring and/or wedding band and have never been personally convicted by the Holy Spirit that they are living an immoral life. And these women are very faithfully serving the Lord in various roles. So, I believe, these type of things are personal convictions as the Holy Spirit knows why they wear their rings and if and when He views them as a hindrance in their spiritual growth, then He will guide them to remove them.

I believe sometimes there is an attempt to get every believer in a church to live the same way and force everyone into a certain list of 'must do' and 'must not do' acts and these attempts at 'oneness' go beyond how the Spirit can operate if given a chance. I believe He can bring about unity with diversity as we all are in various stages of learning to hear and obey His voice. We certainly do not have the same expectations of a new born as we do of a teen. Same goes for God's family, we are all at different stages of spiritual growth and the Holy Spirit guides us at the level of spirituality each is at.

Well, this is probably a topic on it's own of when a church is allowing Holy Spirit guidance of individuals and when He is guiding group decisions.

[Josh]

Sudsy, the topic at hand is diamond engagement rings, not wedding bands. There is a different thread if you want to promote wedding rings.

[Sudsy]

Sudsy, the topic at hand is diamond engagement rings, not wedding bands. There is a different thread if you want to promote wedding rings.

OK, diamond engagement rings. I'm not promoting either diamond engagement rings not wedding bands but rather living by our personal convictions as we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. If a Christian woman believes the Holy Spirit is leading her not to wear a diamond engagement ring, then she should follow the Spirit' guidance for her and not try to impose her personal convictions on others. Nor to have an attitude of being 'more spiritual' or 'more obedient' than those who do not share her conviction.

I found this site quite interesting and especially this topic. He refers to the United Pentecostal Church and their approach to Christianity which is one of those church groups that might be consider 'Conservative' or 'Ultra Conservative' -

https://dividetheword.blog/2020/05/30/c ... convicted/

[Josh]

but rather living by our personal convictions as we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. If a Christian woman believes the Holy Spirit is leading her not to wear a diamond engagement ring, then she should follow the Spirit' guidance for her and not try to impose her personal convictions on others.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the Holy Spirit tells 100 believers 100 completely different sets of convictions.

[Sudsy]

but rather living by our personal convictions as we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. If a Christian woman believes the Holy Spirit is leading her not to wear a diamond engagement ring, then she should follow the Spirit' guidance for her and not try to impose her personal convictions on others.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the Holy Spirit tells 100 believers 100 completely different sets of convictions.

I believe the Holy Spirit can convict someone that for them a certain thing is sin (i.e. drinking alcohol) and yet it is not an issue for another believer who takes communion with fermented wine and not grape juice. However, fermented wine taken in excess could get them drunk, which is a sin. Some Christians are convicted that proper water baptism must be by immersion, others are not convicted that this is true.

Consider this - https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritu ... tions.html

[Ernie]

All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

Again, your knowledge of Anabaptists is so small. Please don't judge all of them by your limited experiences.
How many Anabaptist churches have you driven past? There are tens of thousands of Plain Anabaptists who walk or ride bikes to church in rural areas. One young man used to live in our basement and rode 3.5 hours over the mountains to his church every Sunday and 3.5 hours home again.

[Ken]

All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

Again, your knowledge of Anabaptists is so small. Please don't judge all of them by your limited experiences.
How many Anabaptist churches have you driven past? There are tens of thousands of Plain Anabaptists who walk or ride bikes to church in rural areas. One young man used to live in our basement and rode 3.5 hours over the mountains to his church every Sunday and 3.5 hours home again.

This is the closest plain Anabaptist church to where I grew up. It is about 20 minutes from my childhood home. This is the Google Street view. I believe it is now a Pilgrim Conference Church: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mZC8w6QkX64H95Ch6

It is a country church sitting in a sea of asphalt two miles outside of town and if there are any members living close enough to walk to it I doubt they do so. Members live scattered about the entire area. There isn't any community like Amish or Hutterite or anything that is connected by any means other than hopping in a car and driving. For absolutely every purpose. This is the type of church I'm used to seeing in the Willamette Valley. This is the nearest Holdeman Church just up the valley a bit. https://maps.app.goo.gl/jktejfF8oRtQP9Gw7 I doubt anyone walks or bikes here either. They have a spot of grass at least, but still, this entire community is completely car-centric.

Am I criticizing them? Not really. It is the life and culture that has existed here for generations. My parents grew up in similar settings. But to live this life means one is wedded to the oil industry at the hip. Which is egregiously worse than the diamond industry that set Josh off on this thread. And it isn't just the oil industry in places like Nigeria or Iraq. It is the oil industry right here at home. In many of the places that we live like Pennsylvania and Kansas. So yes, I think it is reasonable to say there is some selective outrage about things like diamonds while at the same time an unwillingness to look at the bigger picture.

For example, here is a Pro-Publica investigation published last week about the impact the oil industry is having on the landscape of this country: https://www.propublica.org/article/the- ... slow-death

The Rising Cost of the Oil Industry’s Slow Death

Unplugged oil and gas wells accelerate climate change, threaten public health and risk hitting taxpayers’ pocketbooks. ProPublica and Capital & Main found that the money set aside to fix the problem falls woefully short of the impending cost.

In the 165 years since the first American oil well struck black gold, the industry has punched millions of holes in the earth, seeking profits gushing from the ground. Now, those wells are running dry, and a generational bill is coming due.

Until wells are properly plugged, many leak oil and brine onto farmland and into waterways and emit toxic and explosive gasses, rendering redevelopment impossible. A noxious lake inundates West Texas ranchland, oil bubbles into a downtown Los Angeles apartment building and gas seeps into the yards of suburban Ohio homes.

But the impact is felt everywhere, as many belch methane, the second-largest contributor to climate change, into the atmosphere.

There are more than 2 million unplugged oil and gas wells that will need to be cleaned up, and the current production boom and windfall profits for industry giants have obscured the bill’s imminent arrival. More than 90% of the country’s unplugged wells either produce little oil and gas or are already dormant.

By law, companies are responsible for plugging and cleaning up wells. Oil drillers set aside funds called bonds, similar to the security deposit on a rental property, that are refunded once they decommission their wells or, if they walk away without doing that work, are taken by the government to cover the cost.

But an analysis by ProPublica and Capital & Main has found that the money set aside for this cleanup work in the 15 states accounting for nearly all the nation’s oil and gas production covers less than 2% of the projected cost. That shortfall puts taxpayers at risk of picking up the rest of the massive tab to avoid the environmental, economic and public health consequences of aging oil fields.

The estimated cost to plug and remediate those wells if cleanup is left to the government is $151.3 billion, according to the states’ own data. But the actual price tag will almost certainly be higher — perhaps tens of billions of dollars more — because some states don’t fully account for the cost of cleaning up pollution. In addition, regulators have yet to locate many wells whose owners have already walked away without plugging them, known as orphan wells, which states predict will number at least in the hundreds of thousands.

“The data presents an urgent call to action for state regulators and the Department of the Interior to swiftly and effectively update bond amounts,” said Shannon Anderson, who tracks the oil industry’s cleanup as organizing director of the Powder River Basin Resource Council, a nonprofit that advocates for Wyoming communities. Anderson and nine other experts, including petroleum engineers and financial analysts, reviewed ProPublica and Capital & Main’s findings, which were built using records from 30 state and federal agencies.

“We have allowed companies intentionally to do this,” said Megan Milliken Biven, who reviewed the data and is a former program analyst for the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, a federal regulator of offshore oil rigs, and founder of True Transition, a nonprofit that advocates for oil field workers. “It is the inevitable consequence of an entire regulatory program that is more red carpet than red tape.”

[Soloist]

Harrisburg is western fellowship. They are perfectly willing to install ties for horses if anyone wanted to. Most of them are within buggy distance.

[Ken]

Harrisburg is western fellowship. They are perfectly willing to install ties for horses if anyone wanted to. Most of them are within buggy distance.

Yes but they don't ride buggies, do they? Or walk/bike to church or anywhere else.

I expect pretty much everyone drives to Eugene or Corvallis/Albany for every major shopping trip as those are where the nearest Wal-Marts and Fred Meyer (Kroger) are located. 50 mile round trip minimum. Maybe the Safeway in Junction City but that's still going to be a 15+ mile round trip.

Look, I think the diamond mining industry is egregious and I have said as much. I'm just pointing out how much easier it is to critical of things that don't actually affect you and be judgmental of others (young women who might want an engagement ring) compared to lifestyle choices we have all made without often really even realizing it. Where doing anything different takes real effort.

[Soloist]

Harrisburg is western fellowship. They are perfectly willing to install ties for horses if anyone wanted to. Most of them are within buggy distance.

Yes but they don't ride buggies, do they? Or walk/bike to church or anywhere else.

With the number of people killed on Peoria I don’t blame them.
Although I do know someone that consistently drives 45 to church on the 55. I really hated getting stuck behind him even though I liked him. He’s one of those who converted from Catholicism, he’s a very smart guy and probably one of the fittest people in that church for his age. He’s in his 80s now and he can out walk us. At least he could when we left.
I’d be willing to bet you and I know a lot of the same people.
Actually there was at least one family that walked to church sometimes two.