The immorality of engagement rings

[Josh]

I don't think we should judge others on this issue. I don't think most people were or are informed about the diamond industry they were honestly just following a tradition they assumed to be a living honest representation and symbol of their commitment and upcoming blessed event.

The fact someone isn't informed about it doesn't make it right, though.

The Bible's clear teaching is against wearing gold and expensive jewels, too. The churches should be teaching this, instead of finding ways to teach that it doesn't matter. The laity have an excuse for not being informed, but leaders and teachers do not.

Simple as that. We were clueless about anything here that is being said against it.
I do agree there is no reason for extravagance or showiness if display but considering they're worn for several decades I'd just not make it an area to attack other Christian traditions. We have plenty enough of that.

There is no "Christian tradition" of wearing an engagement ring. It is entirely a secular tradition, and Christian leaders and teachers should have been preaching against it from day #1.

[Valerie]

I don't think we should judge others on this issue. I don't think most people were or are informed about the diamond industry they were honestly just following a tradition they assumed to be a living honest representation and symbol of their commitment and upcoming blessed event.

The fact someone isn't informed about it doesn't make it right, though.

The Bible's clear teaching is against wearing gold and expensive jewels, too. The churches should be teaching this, instead of finding ways to teach that it doesn't matter. The laity have an excuse for not being informed, but leaders and teachers do not.

Simple as that. We were clueless about anything here that is being said against it.
I do agree there is no reason for extravagance or showiness if display but considering they're worn for several decades I'd just not make it an area to attack other Christian traditions. We have plenty enough of that.

There is no "Christian tradition" of wearing an engagement ring. It is entirely a secular tradition, and Christian leaders and teachers should have been preaching against it from day #1.

If we start critiqueing everything a Christian does we will heap condemnation on them unnecessarily. A preacher uses the ring as symbolic during the ceremony of a circle being eternal in representation of the marriage- I guess that's in reference to the band. I think focusing on something insignificant when there is much more to be concerned about makes us seem like spiritual police. I won't be a party to that. Actually it is symbolic and the Bible talks about a brides adornments. I realize Anabaptist are super strict about that passage but most Christians see it as in "moderation" not total abstinence. I rarely look at a woman's hands, I look at their face & eyes not scrutinize they're clothes or shoes or jewelry. Man focuses on outward but I do not unless it's weird I don't pay attention. I work with many women and could recall one of their engagement rings- honestly! Not something we should focus on IMHO.

[Josh]

If we start critiqueing everything a Christian does we will heap condemnation on them unnecessarily. A preacher uses the ring as symbolic during the ceremony of a circle being eternal in representation of the marriage- I guess that's in reference to the band. I think focusing on something insignificant when there is much more to be concerned about makes us seem like spiritual police. I won't be a party to that. Actually it is symbolic and the Bible talks about a brides adornments. I realize Anabaptist are super strict about that passage but most Christians see it as in "moderation" not total abstinence. I rarely look at a woman's hands, I look at their face & eyes not scrutinize they're clothes or shoes or jewelry. Man focuses on outward but I do not unless it's weird I don't pay attention. I work with many women and could recall one of their engagement rings- honestly! Not something we should focus on IMHO.

I would note that my original post was solely about engagement rings. I would not make as strong of a case for the intrinsic immorality of wedding rings, although I think the Bible teaches against them, too.

A preacher doesn't need to talk about engagement rings at all, and there is no reason for a young couple to bother with an engagement ring. There is absolutely no argument for why there should be an engagement ring - it is just an excuse to spend and waste money and show off. Diamond engagement rings weren't even a custom or a practice in Bible times (as documented elsewhere, they were invented by DeBeers and promoted in the 1930s).

I think that the church, and Christians, definitely do have a place to speak out against slavery, war, war profits, environmental destruction, and the evils of the jewellery industry, which preys on lower income young couples and saddles them with debt. It is a sign of how derelict the modern day church is in its duties that the only people teaching against this evil are plain Anabaptists and some holiness Pentecostals.

[Ken]

You know Josh. I agree that the diamond industry is unsavory and corrupt. As it the gold mining industry. But you always tend to take things too far.

For example, there is probably nothing you can say about the diamond industry that isn't doubly true of the oil industry. In fact the oil industry has wreaked vastly more damage in the developing world than the diamond industry. Yet how many Anabaptist churches rely on gas guzzling vehicles? All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

The oil industry is a wicked and evil business too. And I suspect more young couples are in debt to the oil industry than the diamond industry. Where is your outrage there? You seem highly arbitrary and selective in where you choose to focus your outrage, and exceedingly judgmental of those who don't share your exact moral code with the same degree of intensity.

[Josh]

You know Josh. I agree that the diamond industry is unsavory and corrupt. As it the gold mining industry. But you always tend to take things too far.

For example, there is probably nothing you can say about the diamond industry that isn't doubly true of the oil industry. In fact the oil industry has wreaked vastly more damage in the developing world than the diamond industry. Yet how many Anabaptist churches rely on gas guzzling vehicles? All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

The oil industry is a wicked and evil business too. Where is your outrage there? You seem highly arbitrary and selective in where you choose to focus your outrage, and exceedingly judgmental of those who don't share your exact moral code with the same degree of intensity.

I don’t think the petroleum industry is good at all (particularly imported), but you won’t find anybody doing a better job of avoiding it than plain Anabaptists.

Overall, conservative Anabaptists tend to avoid big metro areas which are notorious for needing massive amounts of energy and instead locate near each other, instead of doing hour+ commutes in big cities. They tend to live near their schools and churches too.

Many plain Anabaptists eschew cars at all and use e-bikes, horse and buggy, scooters, and bicycles instead. And some even avoid electricity too (which is overwhelmingly fossil fuel based; “renewables” like “wind” require massive amounts of petroleum energy inputs to make the turbines in China and then transport and erect them here).

But engagement rings are a quite simple thing to avoid. Just don’t do it. It is a much bigger thing to ask someone to get rid of their vehicle and their electric meter.

[ohio jones]

All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

I usually walk to church, but of course you wouldn't see evidence of that in the parking lot.

[Ken]

All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

I usually walk to church, but of course you wouldn't see evidence of that in the parking lot.

Right. But in point of fact, most Mennonite churches are literally surrounded by a sea of parking and located in rural areas where there are few if any homes within walking distance and usually no safe paths to walk on other than the shoulder of a busy highway. And on Sundays it is a sea of cars.

Look, I don't want to divert this into an endless discussion about the oil industry and our auto-dependent lifestyle. I'm just pointing this out as an example of your arbitrary moral selectivity

[Valerie]

You know Josh. I agree that the diamond industry is unsavory and corrupt. As it the gold mining industry. But you always tend to take things too far.

For example, there is probably nothing you can say about the diamond industry that isn't doubly true of the oil industry. In fact the oil industry has wreaked vastly more damage in the developing world than the diamond industry. Yet how many Anabaptist churches rely on gas guzzling vehicles? All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

The oil industry is a wicked and evil business too. Where is your outrage there? You seem highly arbitrary and selective in where you choose to focus your outrage, and exceedingly judgmental of those who don't share your exact moral code with the same degree of intensity.

Many plain Anabaptists eschew cars at all and use e-bikes, horse and buggy, scooters, and bicycles instead. And some even avoid electricity too (which is overwhelmingly fossil fuel based; “renewables” like “wind” require massive amounts of petroleum energy inputs to make the turbines in China and then transport and erect them here).

That is true. Therefore to an Amish, they are outraged like you are with cars- that is a ,"big deal" to them. So they would view one leaving Amish for Mennonite as sin to get car. YET I'm friends with a couple of drivers for the Amish who hire them to drive all over the place in their gas guzzling vans. Many see that as hypocritical.

[ken_sylvania]

You know Josh. I agree that the diamond industry is unsavory and corrupt. As it the gold mining industry. But you always tend to take things too far.

For example, there is probably nothing you can say about the diamond industry that isn't doubly true of the oil industry. In fact the oil industry has wreaked vastly more damage in the developing world than the diamond industry. Yet how many Anabaptist churches rely on gas guzzling vehicles? All I ever see in front of every church is a sea of parking. No one ever walking or biking.

The oil industry is a wicked and evil business too. Where is your outrage there? You seem highly arbitrary and selective in where you choose to focus your outrage, and exceedingly judgmental of those who don't share your exact moral code with the same degree of intensity.

Many plain Anabaptists eschew cars at all and use e-bikes, horse and buggy, scooters, and bicycles instead. And some even avoid electricity too (which is overwhelmingly fossil fuel based; “renewables” like “wind” require massive amounts of petroleum energy inputs to make the turbines in China and then transport and erect them here).

That is true. Therefore to an Amish, they are outraged like you are with cars- that is a ,"big deal" to them. So they would view one leaving Amish for Mennonite as sin to get car. YET I'm friends with a couple of drivers for the Amish who hire them to drive all over the place in their gas guzzling vans. Many see that as hypocritical.

Tell you what. When I hire someone to wear an engagement ring for me, then you can come talk to me about me being a hypocrite.

[Josh]

Right. But in point of fact, most Mennonite churches are literally surrounded by a sea of parking and located in rural areas where there are few if any homes within walking distance and usually no safe paths to walk on other than the shoulder of a busy highway. And on Sundays it is a sea of cars.

Can you explain how Wenger Mennonites and Amish get to church in the exact same rural areas that other plain people live in?

I note that they don’t proffer excuses like they need “safe paths”. They just hitch up the horse and buggy or hop on the bicycle or walk. No government programs needed either.

Look, I don't want to divert this into an endless discussion about the oil industry and our auto-dependent lifestyle. I'm just pointing this out as an example of your arbitrary moral selectivity

That’s because I don’t have arbitrary moral selectivity and I actually do promote pretty heavily people living as close to work, school and church as possible. Which is another reason I think a plain lifestyle is a more sustainable and environmentally friendly one.

However, it’s a huge thing for me to tell someone to give up their car. It’s not nearly as big of a burden for me to tell them to not buy a diamond ring.