Would a moderate conservate Mennonite chuch (Like Beachy Amish) allow the prodigal son to be a member?

[Ernie]

It does matter, as I've personally been asked how many children I have and was responded with "all from the same woman??". Just with a humble "yes, with my wife".

Sounds like some question going on here... Shouldn't we have some way of showing how many of our children are from the same wife, so that there is no confusion???

My point here is that there are umpteen things we could do to help relieve confusion and people assuming something about us that is incorrect.

[RZehr]

It does matter, as I've personally been asked how many children I have and was responded with "all from the same woman??". Just with a humble "yes, with my wife".

Last night I took a couple of my boys an hour away for them to attend a hunters safety class. My wife had taken them a different night. But we have not been there together. I suppose I might have logically been mistaken for my wifes brother, or my childrens uncle, a baby sitter, or perhaps less logically a kidnapper. But I wasn't.

The instructor asked me how many children I had, and I told him seven, and he said "Wow. That's great." The relevant part was that he repeatedly referred to my wife, as my wife. I didn't tell him we were married. And we weren't wearing rings. He probably didn't even notice that we weren't wearing rings. But he clearly wasn't stumped at what our relationship was with one another, even though he had not seen us together, nor did he make any assumptions about other wives or husbands to me. He easily made the correct, natural, logical assumptions that we were married and that we had seven children together.

[Ernie]

Are Anabaptists just wiggling and squirming their way out of this verse, putting it off, or trying not to recognize what happened in order to continue the "system"?
I've heard directly from the source people mis-judged by outsiders of "shacking up" basically, who were married. It gives the appearance of evil.

Then educate me.
Why did the Jesus say the Father put the ringer on the prodigal son's hand? If I'm making an "inappropriate" statement (come on with the insult), then simply explain why it was perfectly reasonable for Jesus to talk about our Heavenly Father putting a ring on a the finger of the Prodigal son. Why was Jesus imputing, and why was that special in Jesus's way of thinking?
But then your church would make that son take it off to be a member.

Mrbilliam, I am assuming that you are serious in your defense of wedding rings and I am responding accordingly. A friend was telling me earlier this week that he met a Christian who spent a whole day arguing for something, and then admitted a day later that he didn’t actually believe it but was just trying to see whether my friend and his friends could come up with a good argument. I say all this to let you know that I am taking you serious unless you tell me otherwise.

I can agree with you that the scriptures do not forbid wedding rings or wedding bands. But neither do the scriptures encourage it.

The long and short is that I am fine communing with someone who wears a wedding band, assuming they are otherwise following Jesus and the Apostles’ doctrine. I would not be comfortable communing with someone whose motif is to make the sorts of judgments and conclusions you make above, and whose motif shows a distain of others and a disinterest in learning from others. Such persons do not do well in a church setting that expects people to submit to each other and expects people to rightly divide the word of truth. (For the record, I might be willing to commune with such a person a few times, in case I misjudged them too soon.)

There are at least 5 people in this thread who grew up in non-Anabaptist, ring-wearing settings who differ with your conclusions. They did not come to the conclusions they have as a result of being part of the system or wanting to become part of the “system”. They came to their conclusions after many years of reading the Bible and observing humanity. You asked to be educated and they have been trying to educate you and enlighten you in a variety of ways, but it appears that their counsel and perspective has not been received.
Many folks have stopped by MennoNet over the years. Some come to learn. Others come here to defend their afore drawn conclusions. Some conclusions are definitely worth defending, but I don’t see this matter as being one of them.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I apologize, that was an error and I hit the backspace key from another sentence I typed and totally butchered the point. My answer would be YES - for clarity.

If a married Mennonite couple visited stores together, and they do not have wedding bands, strangers to the culture and customs of Mennonites would see man and woman together (often with children) and assume they are shacked up.

I doubt, and you have not addressed the fact that you misused 1 Thess 5:23. If the actual meaning of this passage is taken, the burden is on you to prove that not wearing a ring is evil. This you cannot do,

Don't throw out that accusation. To use an Ad hominem argument against me creates irony to your statement itself.

1 Thess 5:23 - “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The scripture I was using was about the "APPEARANCE OF EVIL". I did not say not wearing a ring is evil. I said it can give the appearance of evil. Thus it may be a good idea for a couple to have simple cheap $10 rings to bear witness to their marriage to those unfamiliar.

You were saying “because it looks bad to some individuals, therefore you should avoid it”

That IS clearly a misuse of what this verse actually means. There is no intrinsic evil in not wearing such a ring, only because someone’s twisted mind assumes there is.

That is the core of your argument. Admit it.

That verse ACTUALLY means avoiding any kind of evil.

[barnhart]

I have been working around blue collar tradesman in NY for nearly 24 years and it is quite rare for them to wear wedding bands. I can think of one. Perhaps it is more of a concern of white collar people.

[mrbilliam]

Are Anabaptists just wiggling and squirming their way out of this verse, putting it off, or trying not to recognize what happened in order to continue the "system"?
I've heard directly from the source people mis-judged by outsiders of "shacking up" basically, who were married. It gives the appearance of evil.

Then educate me.
Why did the Jesus say the Father put the ringer on the prodigal son's hand? If I'm making an "inappropriate" statement (come on with the insult), then simply explain why it was perfectly reasonable for Jesus to talk about our Heavenly Father putting a ring on a the finger of the Prodigal son. Why was Jesus imputing, and why was that special in Jesus's way of thinking?
But then your church would make that son take it off to be a member.

Mrbilliam, I am assuming that you are serious in your defense of wedding rings and I am responding accordingly. A friend was telling me earlier this week that he met a Christian who spent a whole day arguing for something, and then admitted a day later that he didn’t actually believe it but was just trying to see whether my friend and his friends could come up with a good argument. I say all this to let you know that I am taking you serious unless you tell me otherwise.

I can agree with you that the scriptures do not forbid wedding rings or wedding bands. But neither do the scriptures encourage it.

The long and short is that I am fine communing with someone who wears a wedding band, assuming they are otherwise following Jesus and the Apostles’ doctrine. I would not be comfortable communing with someone whose motif is to make the sorts of judgments and conclusions you make above, and whose motif shows a distain of others and a disinterest in learning from others. Such persons do not do well in a church setting that expects people to submit to each other and expects people to rightly divide the word of truth. (For the record, I might be willing to commune with such a person a few times, in case I misjudged them too soon.)

There are at lease 5 people in this thread who grew up in non-Anabaptist, ring-wearing settings who differ with your conclusions. They did not come to the conclusions they have as a result of being part of the system or wanting to become part of the “system”. They came to their conclusions after many years of reading the Bible and observing humanity. You asked to be educated and they have been trying to educate you and enlighten you in a variety of ways, but it appears that their counsel and perspective has not been received.
Many folks have stopped by MennoNet over the years. Some come to learn. Others come here to defend their afore drawn conclusions. Some conclusions are definitely worth defending, but I don’t see this matter as being one of them.

Ernie, I appreciate your answer and I believe it to be a good honest answer here. We should not judge one another who chooses to wear a simple wedding band. There are way worse things in this world.

That said, through the years, I've heard stories for 4 different Beachy Amish sisters in Christ who got harassed at the store by some "weirdo" men. Typically, most men would run for the hills when they see all the religious garb. However some may see the band too and leave alone. Then there are always some who do not care.

Point being we can witness to people the soundness of marriage by displaying in a public way that this woman is my wife, and I am the husband.

I perfectly know why there is no wedding band in our churches... I'm basically just saying it is actually pretty stupid and people get bent out of shape over the issue. A simple $10 ring on the husband and wife is by no means costly array, and bears witness to the union to the entire world. Nobody will misjudge the appearance of evil.

In our settings, (assuming you are moderate to conservative), we all know well several cultural things within our church "to avoid the appearance of evil". One would be a man would never sit right next to a woman he was not married to. But if he must, of course, you need that "perfect space" between you to not impute something. It's better to have the WIFE sit next to that woman, then the husband next to his wife... A young man and woman (singles) would not sit right next to each other in church either. It's the way we do it... We know this, many may not.... But most would see this happen and think it has the appearance of evil.

In the same lens of cultural "weirdness" (if you think about it, it is rather weird), we are so bent out of shape over a teeny piece of metal on a finger to bear witness of our marriage. We cite all kinds of reasons to not have this. But really, all of it is ridiculous because we all know God the Father used this adornment in his own repentant prodigal.

In this symbology of the prodigal, it was a marriage. The sinner comes to God, and he adorned the sinner with "new clothes", and a ring, when they became part of the BRIDE of Christ.

[Soloist]

My husband and I have friends who wear a wedding ring, and neither of us think that makes them any less Christian than us, but they also don't assume we are unchristian for not wearing one. If you have the same concept, then that’s fine, but some people are reading you to say that not wearing one is unchristian, which I would think would be just as bad as saying everyone wearing simple wedding bands are unchristian.

Having to live constantly in fear of someone making assumptions/misunderstanding you would be very crippling. Here are some other examples if we wanted to do that, all actual examples.

1: head covering-once a common Christian practice, this has been dropped by most Christian women, and most people don't even know it's in the Bible. Back when I was wearing a veil, I got mistaken, for Catholic, orthodox, Jewish, and even Muslim. i've known other people who have been mistaken for Muslims as well, even though their style of head covering would have been obviously not Muslim to anyone with any basic knowledge of it. This happens less often with a Mennonite style Capp, but I wouldn't say that every Christian is required to wear that style, and it still does happen sometimes. should we drop that because we fear somebody might think we are another religion, or should we use that as a discussion if the conversation does arise?

2: hanging out with family members. The children and I've gone out to eat with my brother before, and I've wondered before if someone might think he was my boyfriend or my husband, which would be a little awkward, because he has long shaggy hair and wears some crazy gamer/comic character shirts. Also, hugging a family member of the opposite sex in public might make somebody think you are together, but it would be really offensive to my brothers or dad/Uncle for me to refuse to greet them with a hug after not seeing them for a year or two, and I don't think it's wrong and anyone with a brain would probably realize that a romantic greeting is more than just a quick hug. They might also notice the similarities and features between myself and my one brother, but my other half brother is half Hispanic and also has tattoos and stuff like that, but I think it would be very offensive not to want to be around him because of what other people might think.

Same with my husband and his sisters, which might even look worse, since he's a guy and his sisters have crazy hair and are not at all modest, but I don't think he should avoid being seen around them just because somebody might assume something. It's not like he's holding hands or sitting right up next to them, and again, most logical people will give the benefit of the doubt or not even think about it at all.

3: purity rings. This was a thing when I was a teenager, but it can easily make people assume that the young girl in question got married way too young, or maybe is being unfaithful if she happens to be talking to a guy who isn't wearing one, even though she's not doing anything inappropriate with them. I personally don't endorse purity rings, but I'm not going to judge someone who wants to do it and it is a nice concept.

4: teenagers caring for their siblings: especially in large families, I've seen this happen before, and there was this one 12 or 13 year-old who was always caring one of her baby/toddler siblings, and looking older than 12 or 13, we and other people mistook her for the mom. Does that mean that, just because some people might assume she's a teen mom, she should never walk around in a store with her little brother or sister or take care of them in a park while mom is doing something else or otherwise out of sight? We actually got confused and thought she was her dad's wife at one point, which we thought looked like an age gap, but were like whatever, so that could be another example of someone potentially imagining evil.

All I'm saying is that you can't try to construct your life so perfectly that nobody ever makes wrong assumptions, and most of the time, these are all easy to clear up if somebody bothers to ask, and the majority of people think of more than one possibility. Especially given that, as Mennonite ladies typically dress so much different than other people do anyway, I don't think the lack of rings automatically makes people think we are living in fornication. I personally don't see an issue with a couple feeling convicted to wear a wedding ring, but I do see an issue with saying that it's unchristian not to.

[mrbilliam]

My husband and I have friends who wear a wedding ring, and neither of us think that makes them any less Christian than us, but they also don't assume we are unchristian for not wearing one. If you have the same concept, then that’s fine, but some people are reading you to say that not wearing one is unchristian, which I would think would be just as bad as saying everyone wearing simple wedding bands are unchristian.

Having to live constantly in fear of someone making assumptions/misunderstanding you would be very crippling. Here are some other examples if we wanted to do that, all actual examples.

1: head covering-once a common Christian practice, this has been dropped by most Christian women, and most people don't even know it's in the Bible. Back when I was wearing a veil, I got mistaken, for Catholic, orthodox, Jewish, and even Muslim. i've known other people who have been mistaken for Muslims as well, even though their style of head covering would have been obviously not Muslim to anyone with any basic knowledge of it. This happens less often with a Mennonite style Capp, but I wouldn't say that every Christian is required to wear that style, and it still does happen sometimes. should we drop that because we fear somebody might think we are another religion, or should we use that as a discussion if the conversation does arise?

2: hanging out with family members. The children and I've gone out to eat with my brother before, and I've wondered before if someone might think he was my boyfriend or my husband, which would be a little awkward, because he has long shaggy hair and wears some crazy gamer/comic character shirts. Also, hugging a family member of the opposite sex in public might make somebody think you are together, but it would be really offensive to my brothers or dad/Uncle for me to refuse to greet them with a hug after not seeing them for a year or two, and I don't think it's wrong and anyone with a brain would probably realize that a romantic greeting is more than just a quick hug. They might also notice the similarities and features between myself and my one brother, but my other half brother is half Hispanic and also has tattoos and stuff like that, but I think it would be very offensive not to want to be around him because of what other people might think.

Same with my husband and his sisters, which might even look worse, since he's a guy and his sisters have crazy hair and are not at all modest, but I don't think he should avoid being seen around them just because somebody might assume something. It's not like he's holding hands or sitting right up next to them, and again, most logical people will give the benefit of the doubt or not even think about it at all.

3: purity rings. This was a thing when I was a teenager, but it can easily make people assume that the young girl in question got married way too young, or maybe is being unfaithful if she happens to be talking to a guy who isn't wearing one, even though she's not doing anything inappropriate with them. I personally don't endorse purity rings, but I'm not going to judge someone who wants to do it and it is a nice concept.

4: teenagers caring for their siblings: especially in large families, I've seen this happen before, and there was this one 12 or 13 year-old who was always caring one of her baby/toddler siblings, and looking older than 12 or 13, we and other people mistook her for the mom. Does that mean that, just because some people might assume she's a teen mom, she should never walk around in a store with her little brother or sister or take care of them in a park while mom is doing something else or otherwise out of sight? We actually got confused and thought she was her dad's wife at one point, which we thought looked like an age gap, but were like whatever, so that could be another example of someone potentially imagining evil.

All I'm saying is that you can't try to construct your life so perfectly that nobody ever makes wrong assumptions, and most of the time, these are all easy to clear up if somebody bothers to ask, and the majority of people think of more than one possibility. Especially given that, as Mennonite ladies typically dress so much different than other people do anyway, I don't think the lack of rings automatically makes people think we are living in fornication. I personally don't see an issue with a couple feeling convicted to wear a wedding ring, but I do see an issue with saying that it's unchristian not to.

Thank you for the response, and no I am not saying that it is un-Christian to not wear a wedding ring.

I am merely asking what is so bad about it, it can remove the appearance of evil from people unfamiliar with Mennonites, as it can also bear witness to sound marriages to outsiders.

Also are we preventing brothers and sisters in church from carrying out established ordinances of Jesus Christ (communion) if they so chose to wear a simple wedding band?

[Soloist]

Also are we preventing brothers and sisters in church from carrying out established ordinances of Jesus Christ (communion) if they so chose to wear a simple wedding band?

This is striking at a central difference with organized churches and unorganized.

You could rephrase this about different dress styles, different covering styles, ways of baptism and so on.
People object to these “walls” and are anti denomination. What I have found (with very rare exceptions) is these people have their own convictions on a variety of issues and for them it’s not just “we chose do it this way and other Christians can differently” but rather “my way is the Christian way”
An example, I had a family over to eat with us and I was showing off my earthly treasures, specifically, my 10 inch telescope which I love to look at the stars with (when I had it… too hard to move ) and he was very critical of my purchase as being unchristian and told me I needed to sell it. Meanwhile he traveled in a converted bus with a big “denominations are sin” on his side. Later when visiting them I was criticized for wearing a plain suit. I was actually having problems with my church at the time but wanted to stand with them than have commiserating over my “horrible” church. I was publicly attacked for identifying with Mennonites.
I’m not saying this sort of stuff is you, but generally people against standards not expressly spelled out tend to have their own version they deny is the same thing.

PS: The previous post was the wife. She usually tries to put Wife before things that she posts, and was worried that you might get confused since we both use the same account.

[Ken]

I have been working around blue collar tradesman in NY for nearly 24 years and it is quite rare for them to wear wedding bands. I can think of one. Perhaps it is more of a concern of white collar people.

Rings can be a dangerous accessory around various power tools. There are all kinds of ways you can rip your finger off while wearing a ring around power tools and others sorts of accidents can be made worse while wearing a ring. Gold is a superb conductor and so wearing a ring can also make one susceptible to severe electrical shocks and burns if you are working around live wiring. Especially if you were to do something like get a live wire caught and tangled up with a wedding ring.