The Anabaptist perception on wages & salaries!

[mike]

In my opinion, the majority of the "limited partnerships" that many conservatives have are borderline illegal, if not completely off the rails. I worked for such an operation years ago. The only benefit I had was five days a year I could take off and get paid. Whether I burned them on a holiday or not was my choice.

That same place created a loophole to stay in operation when Covid had places shut down.

An LP is actually an entirely legal way to do it, probably a much safer way than using subcontractors.

Of course, as someone who is technically an owner… you could just take days off, since technically you can’t be fired either. I know a Mennonite gentleman who “exercised” this option when his employer made him technically a partner so he could legallydodge (some) taxes and employment rules. The gentleman started up his own business and then said he was going to be serving the employer as now one of his customers.

Mennonites who try to use these are counting on the fact their “1% partners” won’t sue them. In my opinion, if this is how things are going to be done, then Mennonite churches need to adjudicate such disputes and make sure everyone is treated fairly, just like a real court would (or should). And that would include not being able to fire “partners”.

Is there any data on whether a larger percentage of Mennonites & Amish are business owners or self-employed than the rest of the population? It seems to me like there are, but I have no way of knowing. One of the best antidotes to an employer taking advantage of his employees is the ever-present risk of having them quit and start their own competing business. Which happens all the time. A lot of construction crews are basically a guy and a couple of young helpers, who are getting trained to do the job, and who are very likely to go on their own once they know what they are doing.

[Josh]

I vaguely recall reading something in some journal about that. Anecdotally, the amount of people either self employed or with a very small business (1 or 2 part time employees or 1 full time) seems to be much much higher in plain circles. In liberal Mennonite circles I used to run in, it was definitely higher than the general population but lower than plain circles.

One gentleman in my regional area left his Beachy church and went to a CMC church but paid his workers decently and as employees. The rest of the CMCites paid less and paid as subs. At one point, one of the wealthier men complained to the ex-Beachy guy and asked him to stop doing that because he kept losing workers to the ex-Beachy guy. “It’s getting hard to make a profit.” Meanwhile he lived in a multi million dollar house.

Edit: another interesting thing is that if you have just 1 employee, federal wage laws don’t even apply, and in my state, they don’t apply if you’re under $380k in gross revenue a year. So you wouldn’t even have to pay minimum wage. Just workers’ comp and unemployment, which always seemed like a bargain to me: if business slows down, you can lay your employer off or switch them to part time and they’ll get an unemployment check.

[steve-in-kville]

From within. It always works better to promote someone who has been with the business for some time than to hire somebody new to the business.

I agree. My employer went through a phase when everyone above a certain level of management needed four years of college. The pandemic squashed that.... for now. One of our shifts hasn't had a "home grown" supervisor in 15+ years and that shift is a train wreck.

[mike]

In my business there are two big areas where things are really elastic and it's a real judgment call. 1. Employee compensation, and 2. Retail prices. They are somewhat related, because if you grow compensation, you have to hope that the public can stomach the accompanying growth in retail prices. The environment the last few years has been unusually favorable in terms of what the public will put up with in terms of price increases, but that is changing again in my opinion.

[Josh]

From within. It always works better to promote someone who has been with the business for some time than to hire somebody new to the business.

I agree. My employer went through a phase when everyone above a certain level of management needed four years of college. The pandemic squashed that.... for now. One of our shifts hasn't had a "home grown" supervisor in 15+ years and that shift is a train wreck.

I’ve always said a supervisor can’t successfully supervise a job they’ve never rolled up their sleeves and done themselves.

[steve-in-kville]

From within. It always works better to promote someone who has been with the business for some time than to hire somebody new to the business.

I agree. My employer went through a phase when everyone above a certain level of management needed four years of college. The pandemic squashed that.... for now. One of our shifts hasn't had a "home grown" supervisor in 15+ years and that shift is a train wreck.

I’ve always said a supervisor can’t successfully supervise a job they’ve never rolled up their sleeves and done themselves.

Exactly. That and you need a person who worked their way up through the ranks and can tell "war stories" from long ago. That builds trust and respect.

[Josh]

I agree. My employer went through a phase when everyone above a certain level of management needed four years of college. The pandemic squashed that.... for now. One of our shifts hasn't had a "home grown" supervisor in 15+ years and that shift is a train wreck.

I’ve always said a supervisor can’t successfully supervise a job they’ve never rolled up their sleeves and done themselves.

Exactly. That and you need a person who worked their way up through the ranks and can tell "war stories" from long ago. That builds trust and respect.

Been a while since I worked in a workplace like that. It was nice to work for an “old timer” who knew how things operated.

[mike]

I’ve always said a supervisor can’t successfully supervise a job they’ve never rolled up their sleeves and done themselves.

Exactly. That and you need a person who worked their way up through the ranks and can tell "war stories" from long ago. That builds trust and respect.

Been a while since I worked in a workplace like that. It was nice to work for an “old timer” who knew how things operated.

Not everybody gets the opportunity to grow up in a business. I am very impressed with the ability of some people to jump into a whole new field, even in their older years, learn brand new skills, and thrive. My father in law went from dairy farming to starting his own appliance repair business in his early 60s. Within just a couple years, he was telling the war stories of his new trade. Some people are just more excited than others about learning new things.

[Ken]

Is there any data on whether a larger percentage of Mennonites & Amish are business owners or self-employed than the rest of the population? It seems to me like there are, but I have no way of knowing. One of the best antidotes to an employer taking advantage of his employees is the ever-present risk of having them quit and start their own competing business. Which happens all the time. A lot of construction crews are basically a guy and a couple of young helpers, who are getting trained to do the job, and who are very likely to go on their own once they know what they are doing.

I would expect that to be the case since Mennonites and Amish trend rural and rural areas have a higher percentage of small businesses than urban areas. Or put another way, small businesses make up a higher percentage of rural economies than they do urban economies. Rural areas have more small mom and pop stores, restaurants, contractors, etc. Plus most farms are small businesses. Urban areas have more corporate chains and big employers.

[Josh]

Is there any data on whether a larger percentage of Mennonites & Amish are business owners or self-employed than the rest of the population? It seems to me like there are, but I have no way of knowing. One of the best antidotes to an employer taking advantage of his employees is the ever-present risk of having them quit and start their own competing business. Which happens all the time. A lot of construction crews are basically a guy and a couple of young helpers, who are getting trained to do the job, and who are very likely to go on their own once they know what they are doing.

I would expect that to be the case since Mennonites and Amish trend rural and rural areas have a higher percentage of small businesses than urban areas. Or put another way, small businesses make up a higher percentage of rural economies than they do urban economies. Rural areas have more small mom and pop stores, restaurants, contractors, etc. Plus most farms are small businesses. Urban areas have more corporate chains and big employers.

Yet the pattern I described holds true for suburban and urban congregations too.