Church or cult?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Leadership that is accountable to no one.
Finances that are hidden from the congregation
Promotion of family members to leadership, in spite of qualification.
Claim that leadership has some sort of special "anointing" and are the only one God speaks to.
Misuse of information derived from counseling or confession.

I don't want to say that our conservative groups are cults.... but cult-ish


I forgot about this post I made a while back:

https://milepost81.com/2021/03/12/maybe ... -cult-ish/

While there are other "indicators" of a group's leaning toward cult-like behavior - being "cult-ish" - I would consider the presence of some heretical belief to be a requirement for designation as a cult. Is severe "mind-control" through power structures also required? It does seem that this feature is also nearly always is included.

I have seen “real” cults in action. While all churches that are high involvement have a few of the features of one, the level of autonomy that a local church has prevents it from becoming one. It is not unheard of for a local church to leave a conference if it gets to a point where the majority disagree with the leadership. In a like vein, congregations divide over seemingly small issues. So there is a check on a congregation ever becoming a cult.

[MaxPC]

Researchers have identified four basic characteristics that tend to be common to all cults

Authoritarian control: Cultism hinges on encouraging maximum dependency. People in the cult must feel incapable of living an individual life outside the norms of the group. These beliefs often go hand in hand with a worshipful attitude toward the group’s authoritarian leader.

Extremist beliefs: Cult members hold to very dogmatic and extreme beliefs. They also are unable to question these belief systems without fear of reprisal or punishment from the leader or other group members.

Isolation from society: As soon as new members join a cult, other adherents work hard to isolate them from family members and friends. This helps fulfill the mind control aspirations of the leader. It also creates a hive mind of sorts between the new person and the other members.

Veneration of a single individual: Charismatic leaders are often at the center of most cults. Consider the Manson family of the late 1960s. As their name suggests, they adopted the beliefs of their leader, Charles Manson, and fulfilled his requests. The same pattern repeats in almost all other cults, albeit to less violent ends in many cases.

There are also various types of cults. For example: Doomsday cults, political cults, religious cults, and sex cults.

I agree with this.

Is severe "mind-control" through power structures also required? It does seem that this feature is also nearly always is included.

I would also add that most cults are started by a single individual who is the Alpha. When reading about research of cults, you will come across a term "cult of personality" (or personality cult) that references this Alpha who frequently uses psychological manipulative techniques.

[Neto]

I don't want to say that our conservative groups are cults.... but cult-ish


I forgot about this post I made a while back:

https://milepost81.com/2021/03/12/maybe ... -cult-ish/

While there are other "indicators" of a group's leaning toward cult-like behavior - being "cult-ish" - I would consider the presence of some heretical belief to be a requirement for designation as a cult. Is severe "mind-control" through power structures also required? It does seem that this feature is also nearly always is included.

I have seen “real” cults in action. While all churches that are high involvement have a few of the features of one, the level of autonomy that a local church has prevents it from becoming one. It is not unheard of for a local church to leave a conference if it gets to a point where the majority disagree with the leadership. In a like vein, congregations divide over seemingly small issues. So there is a check on a congregation ever becoming a cult.

I have too, although have never been involved in one myself.

I was approached by "Jesus Only" people while in my Freshman year at Bible institute, then a friend from there came to visit me at the Bible college where I transferred to for my Sophomore year (and on). He was a member of "The Church at Chicago" - The Local Church (Witness Lee). Right off, as he began telling me about it, I thought it was a cult, but at around 2 or 3 in the morning, he had me convinced that his group was just misunderstood and misrepresented by other churches. As I (vocally) accepted that, he made the following comment: he said, "I was also uncertain about them when I first attended one of their meetings, because as I walked in, they were all chanting 'Jesus is watermelon.'" Then I knew. And further conversation with him confirmed it, when he told me that because Jesus has a body, and is seated at the right HAND of the Father, and "God is Spirit", that only the Holy Spirit is truly God, the others just being some sort of "representation" of God (the Spirit). Ironically, I had only recently written a paper for Theology class, that stated that "No Christian heresy or cult has ever denied the deity of the Father." Well, first time for everything, I guess. [I later met a member of The Local Church from a different city, and we visited at length (He had come along with another friend for a weekend visit at my parent's house), and he at least didn't hold to any beliefs I would say were heretical. Just the exclusiveness of being the only true Church in an entire city.]

I also knew a girl there at the Bible college who had been high up in the "Moonies". She was a traveling lecturer, until the lack of proper nutrition put her in the hospital. (One bowl of rice a day, she told me.) The organization paid her hospital bills for the first 2 months, then abandoned her. At that point an aunt of hers, a sister of her mother, took her in. This aunt was a Christian, and she (my friend) also became a Christian. (She had run away from home at 15 years of age, and her parents were Morman, so that was her background.) During the Summer after the school year when we met, she was taken in by "The Children of God". They required her to cut off ties with all family and former friends. She was still a relatively new Christian, and only as time went on did she realize that she had gotten into another cult. She fled them, and checked herself into a program run by the organization started by David Wilkerson. Most of the girls in that home were there for drug abuse or prostitution recovery, but she was not involved in either of those things. She had just realized that her issues with family relationships indicated that she needed more help than she was getting elsewhere. After completing the 6 month program there, she stayed on as staff. I called her a couple of times while she was still in the program, and the person who answered would not admit that she was even staying there, and asked me so many questions that I felt like I was on trial or something. I didn't react well to that, and refused to give them more than my first name. She called me back later, and sort of scolded me for not cooperating, because, she said, people from The Children of God were searching for her, and probably would have abducted her. Some time after that I lost contact with her altogether, but I often think of her, and pray that she is doing well, and in a good Christian congregation.

[Sudsy]

Researchers have identified four basic characteristics that tend to be common to all cults

Authoritarian control: Cultism hinges on encouraging maximum dependency. People in the cult must feel incapable of living an individual life outside the norms of the group. These beliefs often go hand in hand with a worshipful attitude toward the group’s authoritarian leader.

Extremist beliefs: Cult members hold to very dogmatic and extreme beliefs. They also are unable to question these belief systems without fear of reprisal or punishment from the leader or other group members.

Isolation from society: As soon as new members join a cult, other adherents work hard to isolate them from family members and friends. This helps fulfill the mind control aspirations of the leader. It also creates a hive mind of sorts between the new person and the other members.

Veneration of a single individual: Charismatic leaders are often at the center of most cults. Consider the Manson family of the late 1960s. As their name suggests, they adopted the beliefs of their leader, Charles Manson, and fulfilled his requests. The same pattern repeats in almost all other cults, albeit to less violent ends in many cases.

There are also various types of cults. For example: Doomsday cults, political cults, religious cults, and sex cults.

Looking at these characteristics, there appears to me to be some that are pretty close, if not the same, as the more 'holiness' or 'conservative' type of churches. Things like requirements to live according to the expected church norms; punishment of sorts if one does not adhere to requirements; the 'hive mind' concept; a certain isolation from the world that may include family; very dogmatic and extreme beliefs (i.e. physical appearance, rules of behaviour); naming a church to include the originator's name and basically following that leaders ways and beliefs.

Here is an article where a person comes out of the Holdeman group and calls it a 'sinister cult'. There are some pretty strong opinions here from this individual. I think what one may consider a 'cult', others would not. I suspect some of what are referred to as 'liberal' churches would have those who regard 'holiness' and 'conservative' churches as 'cult-ish' if not a cult.

[RZehr]

Here is an article where a person comes out of the Holdeman group and calls it a 'sinister cult'. There are some pretty strong opinions here from this individual. I think what one may consider a 'cult', others would not. I suspect some of what are referred to as 'liberal' churches would have those who regard 'holiness' and 'conservative' churches as 'cult-ish' if not a cult.

Another horrific secret of the church is the pedophilic rituals they conduct on newly baptized members, who can be as young as nine years old. A church service is held to celebrate the baptism and at the end of the service, the child is forced to kiss the rest of the church members on the lips. Hannah Prosser says in one of her TikTok videos. “I will never forget how dirty it made me feel…just after I had been baptized, a line formed of females and one by one…kissed us on the lips. Between that day and the next couple years I am estimating I kissed approximately two hundred different people on the lips.” This abuse started at the time she was 14 and continued long after the initial church service with members being forced to use it as a greeting when they visit each other’s homes. Evidence of the church’s guilt lies in another of Hannah’s statements where she recalls “I did ask the ministers and other people why, if this holy kiss was so holy, were we only supposed to exchange these holiest of kisses on Holdeman Mennonite property or in the Holdeman Mennonite Church…If it was so holy, why did we also not greet each other with the holy kiss at the grocery store. But the thing is, it’s kept a little bit of a secret.” This alone strongly indicates the church knows full well they are abusing children.

Alrighty then Hannah.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Reading the rest of the stuff this site points to, most of it appears to be misconstrued or exaggerated stuff. I really do not think the COGICM is a cult. That would have had ro be one huge congregation to be greeted by 200+ people. Assuming agender ratio of 50%, that means 400……….

However, I am left with one question: Is Cloudveil really owned by the church ?

[Soloist]

Did you hear what those Christians did? They offer children as sacrifices and then they all eat of the body and drink the blood!

While I don’t think a 9 year old is somehow old enough to understand, cheek kisses are perfectly acceptable in most conservative churches.

Would you hold a child back from immersion baptism because its like a pedophile ritual where they hold your child with their arms and push them under water?

[Josh]

Reading the rest of the stuff this site points to, most of it appears to be misconstrued or exaggerated stuff. I really do not think the COGICM is a cult. That would have had ro be one huge congregation to be greeted by 200+ people. Assuming agender ratio of 50%, that means 400……….

My wife's cousin grew up with her and my wife's sister has also lived there through this troubled young woman's growing up years. Needless to say, our courage for the holy kiss has not been anything of the strength that Ms. Prosser describes it as being. The congregation also was not anything close to 200 female members at the time she was baptised.

Unfortunately, much of her tell-all book and interviews seems to be fiction, but given her troubled state I would give her the benefit of the doubt that she may not remember things clearly and may be unintentionally fabricating details.

However, I am left with one question: Is Cloudveil really owned by the church ?

CloudVeil Technology, Inc. is a 501(c)3 nonprofit that is dedicated to creating Internet filtering software for anyone who wants to use it, including other types of Mennonites, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, conservative homeschooling Christians, or even non-religious people. It does receive funding in the form of grants from our church and from other foundations. The leadership consists of members of our church.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Reading the rest of the stuff this site points to, most of it appears to be misconstrued or exaggerated stuff. I really do not think the COGICM is a cult. That would have had ro be one huge congregation to be greeted by 200+ people. Assuming agender ratio of 50%, that means 400……….

My wife's cousin grew up with her and my wife's sister has also lived there through this troubled young woman's growing up years. Needless to say, our courage for the holy kiss has not been anything of the strength that Ms. Prosser describes it as being. The congregation also was not anything close to 200 female members at the time she was baptised.

Unfortunately, much of her tell-all book and interviews seems to be fiction, but given her troubled state I would give her the benefit of the doubt that she may not remember things clearly and may be unintentionally fabricating details.

However, I am left with one question: Is Cloudveil really owned by the church ?

CloudVeil Technology, Inc. is a 501(c)3 nonprofit that is dedicated to creating Internet filtering software for anyone who wants to use it, including other types of Mennonites, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, conservative homeschooling Christians, or even non-religious people. It does receive funding in the form of grants from our church and from other foundations. The leadership consists of members of our church.

Yeah, that is sort of what I thought.

So, sort of like Compass Foundation?

[Ken]

When I was in high school in Oregon the Rajneeshees were at their peak with their huge commune in the town of Antelope in North Central Oregon. Hundreds of them were descending on Oregon from all around the world and they wound up in big classes with the state government over land use issues and ended up trying to rig an election by spreading salmonella at salad bars in restaurants in the Dalles (to keep voters away) and by importing hundreds of homeless from Portland in an attempt to get them to vote locally for Rajneesh candidates for the county government.

They met all the definitions of a cult with a charismatic leader and control. But weirdly the Rajneeh never said much and it was mostly his spokeswoman who seemed to run things. The the whole thing crashed and burned shortly after when the leadership was indicted and convicted and the rest of them scattered to the winds. And there isn't much there at all today.

We moved to Waco in 2003 which was about 10 years after the Branch Davidian fiasco. But it was still pretty fresh in most local's memories. At the time basically no one in Waco even knew about the Branch Davidians and their cult and compound. They were actually about 12 miles out of town in a really isolated piece of property that isn't near any major roads so not on the way to anyplace. The first that most Wacoans heard about the Branch Davadians was the same as the rest of the country when they were on TV. The national press set up in Waco and spent 2 months reporting "from Waco" so the whole nation seems to think the thing happened in Waco when it really didn't. Waco is just the nearest city and county seat. I drove past it once out of curiosity and it is really hard to find on a back road with no sign that anything ever really happened there. Just some ordinary wheat fields. This is what it looks like today: https://maps.app.goo.gl/tYVDXrD47EDguTTT9

Those were actual cults.

I think we are really stretching the definition of a cult to label any Anabaptist groups a cult unless we are talking about some really small isolated group like that one in Missouri a few years ago that was convicted of killing a child for some strange abusive religious reason. https://krcgtv.com/news/local/benton-co ... r-old-dies