Seekers and troubled homes

[Josh]

I don’t think having “post partum depression” is an excuse either. Go to a psychiatrist and get help if that’s the case.

She did that.

OK. In that case, the normal stresses of motherhood seemed to be more than this woman could handle. I agree that the stresses of parenthood are difficult, but the simple fact is that life often isn't "easy". From the sounds of it, she couldn't handle these stresses.

Ok… when you have small children or a baby, I think expecting a good night’s sleep is just off the table. If terribly sleep deprived mom can try to take naps during the day.

Some men have occupations where they cannot be sleep deprived (trucking is the best example of this). Either the church needs to teach against such occupations or else the wife will need to accept that she’s going to have to deal with children waking up at night until they are sleep trained adequately. The latter can take a while with some children.

A lot of assumptions are being made here... I don't want to explain the situation further...

Unfortunately given a short narrative like this a lot of assumptions have to be made. I'm not sure what else to do (particularly since obviously you don't want to give personally identifying details).

My bigger question is why the husband became an agnostic. That would seem to point to a bigger sin area in his life.
Overall, it sounds like both of these people decided to destroy their lives for sinful reasons and did not choose to live lives dedicated to serving Christ first before all else.

Again... A lot of assumptions are being made here...

Overall, I think belief in Jesus as the Son of God and as our Lord and saviour is the most important decision that any person ever makes in their life. And then, following that decision, accepting Jesus' lordship into one's life, and holding fast to that for eternity. That includes any bad marriage situations... bad church situations... bad people... being taken advantage of...

I cannot imagine a worse life outcome for me than ending up being an agnostic (again). However, I do want to recognise the importance of the shepherds of the flock in helping a weak brother or sister not lose their faith. So I would say perhaps the leadership could have done more - but on the other hand, perhaps they are already scratching their heads and asking themselves, "Did we do enough?"

Ultimately I don't want to make it to the judgment seat and Jesus says, "Depart from me, for I never knew you," and my answer is "Well, church leaders hurt me and made mistakes, so I chose to be offended and stop believing in you."

[Josh]

Assumptions are dangerous and cause a lot of harm. Life isn't simple. "Jesus had all the answers... and He wept."

From what you are saying, he revealed his issues early on. Women can and do crumble under that kind of stress, even if there are no other forms of marital stress. Further, most abusers deny that anything is amiss. It continually boggles my mind how many in plain circles totally deny very obvious signs of abuse/neglect/disorder. I used to think it was ignorance, but have had to discard that thinking in most cases.

Bit of an assumption you made that this gentleman is an "abuser", isn't it?

I do not consider a neglectful husband who doesn't help with the children enough to be an "abuser". And it certainly doesn't justify going and making false domestic violence claims.

[Verity]

Perhaps I did, Josh. It is a challenge to not let our personal experiences color what we hear. As a couple, we've worked with many troubled situations, both within and without of the church. A situation has to be BAD for a woman to flee to a shelter. Why? Because most women will go to family or church first. I am concluding that this woman no longer felt safe with her church and did not have family to go to. Women even in life threatening situations will not flee, statistically, unless their children are in serious danger.

The fact that "they fell in love again" and he convinced her to leave her faith would also be a strong red flag. You like statistics, Josh. Go check and see how many women return to an abusive situation. I've watched it firsthand too many times. In contrast, I've watched many marriages and families heal and restoration take place by God's grace. Not every situation goes sour.

What I read into what Ernie shared was that the facts that the church could see was that this husband wasn't very helpful with the children. That was the surface, we all know there is far more to a story than what we see on the surface. I have never, ever heard of a woman going to a shelter because "hubby ain't very helpful". Have you?

Ernie, if you do not feel free to share this I respect that. Did the woman follow her doctor's directives and did the church support her in that? If she received a medical diagnosis of schizophrenia for example, that would color the account considerably.

[Ernie]

Did the woman follow her doctor's directives and did the church support her in that? If she received a medical diagnosis of schizophrenia for example, that would color the account considerably.

She had access to professional help at the women's shelter but I don't know what she got and what was diagnosed.

[GoodGirl]

The question for you is,

During this time of trying to work with the situation, some are saying she is definitely sinning. Others say, "We need to make sure we understand all that is going on in the relationship and which of her charges are true and which ones are false, before we accuse her of sinning."

Which response do you lean towards... the one to quickly say she is sinning and must repent, or the response of trying to learn a lot more about the situation before coming to a conclusion...

Please, please the bolded.

Imagine the consequences if the church is wrong here. It’s worth all the time it takes to figure it out.

It also might take more than the church can offer. The church may need to reach out to people with experience that can truly help.

[GoodGirl]

Also, I don’t know about most people, but life is hard enough.

Me, as a wife & mother of my children/youth… I do not remotely have time or energy to make up drama, about my husband or anyone for that matter.

If (ok, when) I seek help, it’s because it’s real & I need it.

[GoodGirl]

I know a woman right now who is in a very bad situation with her husband, and her husband also believes in having as many babies as humanly possible.

The church has reached out to her & offered her help with her marriage, and she has refused. She was raised that staring anything negative about her husband is a sin, and she also believes that in counseling, they would tell her husband to change, which would cause her to lose respect for him. So she stays quiet so she can ‘not lose respect for him.’

The family is a wreck. I mean, it’s just *sad.*

She is such a nice lady.

[Verity]

GoodGirl, God be with you. I am so sorry. Don't lose hope.

Josh and the rest- this is my plea. Never forget that what you see at church is not the whole picture. I am not saying that when there are problems it is always the man, because that is not true. But, typically, women are highly motivated to do whatever they can to help things go the right way. God Himself lays responsibility for the spiritual state of the home on the man. Remember that if you are wrong in your conclusions, there are souls at stake.

There are three cases I related to closely that are similar to what GoodGirl shared. The one man had a brain injury and was never quite the same, but church people did not see his ugly side. His wife and older children tried to get help, but kept getting their hands smacked by the church. I tried along with two others to get (professional/state) help for them and each of us had our membership threatened. Finally, some folks started seeing his ugly side but they said "But he isn't this way ALL the time, so it isn't fair to judge him!" But, why was it fair to judge his wife and children?

Whether it is mental or spiritual issues, satan is an angel of light. He is the master deceiver. Those under his control are also good actors. We cannot see hearts like Jesus could, but Jesus did instruct his followers "this kind cometh not out but by prayer and by fasting". I know of a congregation where this was the first step taken- prayer and fasting- and it quickly came to light what was really going on. God give us wisdom and discernment.

[ohio jones]

I will probably come back & delete this, so please don’t quote it.

There's a time limit on editing and deleting, so if you decide later that you'd prefer to have it removed, click the "!" button on the post and one of the moderators can take care of that for you.

[Josh]

To Verity and GoodGirl:

I left a church I loved, and lost many relationships, because I decided to hold an abuser and adulterer accountable. To this day, I am accused of a lot of things ranging from being abusive to my ex wife, to only leaving because I wanted to get remarried, to being a fornicator because I was seen once at a hardware store during the daytime with my then-Pentecostal girlfriend, to being an FBI agent trying to catch Mennonites and get them in legal trouble, to being someone who is going to “share family secrets that can’t get out” (I had no idea such secrets existed until I was accused of that!)

Eventually, I am so persona non grata at that church that my brother (who is a member there) was told I’m not to be invited to any church functions. My only “sin” has been trying to hold an abuser accountable. And I haven’t taken any action in years. But when you stand up for what’s right. That’s how some churches react. So I can’t go to my nieces or nephews programs. Or anything there. I am not excommmnciated, on repentance, and am in good standing with my church.

I am well aware of how women’s shelters work having been involved in fundraising for them before and helping in other ways. However, I do not agree with “always believe women”. Both women and men can lie and do.

A while ago, a family friend’s wife accused him of DV and went to a shelter with their baby. He was Venezuelan and she went so far as to try to have him deported.

A year later, it turned out her mother was actually the abusive one and pressured her to do the whole thing. The couple is together now (their child is nearly grown now). He had immense legal and financial issues thanks to that. Her mother never took any accountability for what she did. Further details are too sordid to share here. Fortunately the courts looked into it and did vacate his convictions finally based on his wife’s testimony.

Both men and women can be abusers.

My gravest concern is for people’s souls: of the unrepentant audulterer mentioned above. The corrupt leadership who refused to deal with him. And the couple Ernie mentioned who both lost their faith in Jesus.