Mennonite Outward Appearance Requirements For Men

[Josh]

Also true. So then I would conclude that He wants us to be guided by the Holy Spirit in how we dress and not attempt to establish a dress requirement for everyone that choses to fellowship with us. Or do you think God is in support of each Christian church group having all these distinctions through what they call all being of one mind in that church group ? And what do you think is the impact on reaching the lost with all these different sanctification practises ?

Plain Anabaptists represent 0.3% of North America's population, so they are a very tiny group. If you like the non-plain approach you are free to choose it.

A plain church discerns together how to do all kinds of things about basic daily living, not just clothing. As a rule, we don't believe that each individual somehow has their own personal Holy Spirit and that a church of 100 people has 100 Holy Spirits who, mysteriously, are all telling them conflicting things. We think we should instead discern things together and move forward that way.

That is what enables us to do things like operate a school together, conduct various kinds of relief work, pay missionaries to do mission worko, pay house parents for relief work units, and so on. Because we put our own will down and our own desires down and instead decide to work together. Doing these kinds of things together means nobody's one voice or their own light can be louder or shine brighter than their brethren's.

[Ken]

That is what enables us to do things like operate a school together, conduct various kinds of relief work, pay missionaries to do mission worko, pay house parents for relief work units, and so on. Because we put our own will down and our own desires down and instead decide to work together. Doing these kinds of things together means nobody's one voice or their own light can be louder or shine brighter than their brethren's.

That is a nice notion in theory. But like so many other theories, it doesn't work like that in practice in any church I have ever encountered, plain or otherwise.

[Josh]

That is what enables us to do things like operate a school together, conduct various kinds of relief work, pay missionaries to do mission worko, pay house parents for relief work units, and so on. Because we put our own will down and our own desires down and instead decide to work together. Doing these kinds of things together means nobody's one voice or their own light can be louder or shine brighter than their brethren's.

That is a nice notion in theory. But like so many other theories, it doesn't work like that in practice in any church I have ever encountered, plain or otherwise.

Have you ever spent time as a member of a plain church?

I feel like my voice gets listened to. However, it doesn't get listened to more than another person's does. So in my congregation, I am 1% or so of the voice. Conference-wide, I feel like 0.004% of the voice (although I did get up and speak 3 times at the last general conference, and the decisions that were made about the topics I spoke on generally went the way I thought they should, so maybe my voice was a little "louder" than people who didn't get up and speak).

But part of the point is that some decisions haven't gone the way I want them to, but I prefer to be part of something bigger than just "myself". Or "my wife and my kids in some little tiny nuclear family that thinks we know best." We don't elevate individualism and in fact when it does happen (including in leadership) it's a cause for great concern.

[Sudsy]

Also true. So then I would conclude that He wants us to be guided by the Holy Spirit in how we dress and not attempt to establish a dress requirement for everyone that choses to fellowship with us. Or do you think God is in support of each Christian church group having all these distinctions through what they call all being of one mind in that church group ? And what do you think is the impact on reaching the lost with all these different sanctification practises ?

Plain Anabaptists represent 0.3% of North America's population, so they are a very tiny group. If you like the non-plain approach you are free to choose it.

A plain church discerns together how to do all kinds of things about basic daily living, not just clothing. As a rule, we don't believe that each individual somehow has their own personal Holy Spirit and that a church of 100 people has 100 Holy Spirits who, mysteriously, are all telling them conflicting things. We think we should instead discern things together and move forward that way.

I don't either believe there are multiple Holy Spirits. But I do believe the one Holy Spirit lives within each believer and that He guides them as they move forward in their Christian experience. I also don't believe He guides us in conflicting ways. Rather our conflicting ways are the result of our not knowing His voice and venturing off into our own human reasonings. I think discerning together can work if a group is all Spirit lead but sometimes it is the strongest voice/argument and the flesh that comes up with some of these practises.

That is what enables us to do things like operate a school together, conduct various kinds of relief work, pay missionaries to do mission worko, pay house parents for relief work units, and so on. Because we put our own will down and our own desires down and instead decide to work together. Doing these kinds of things together means nobody's one voice or their own light can be louder or shine brighter than their brethren's.

Unbelievers work together too to accomplish the goals of their group. I do believe the NT, as we read in the Acts, did seek the Spirit's guidance but not on things such as their clothing style or just how simple of a life they should live. It seems to me their focus was more on others and spreading the Gospel. I do believe harmony in a local church is important but not to be forced. I also believe in God's plan is unity in diversity.

[Ken]

That is what enables us to do things like operate a school together, conduct various kinds of relief work, pay missionaries to do mission worko, pay house parents for relief work units, and so on. Because we put our own will down and our own desires down and instead decide to work together. Doing these kinds of things together means nobody's one voice or their own light can be louder or shine brighter than their brethren's.

That is a nice notion in theory. But like so many other theories, it doesn't work like that in practice in any church I have ever encountered, plain or otherwise.

Have you ever spent time as a member of a plain church?

I feel like my voice gets listened to. However, it doesn't get listened to more than another person's does. So in my congregation, I am 1% or so of the voice. Conference-wide, I feel like 0.004% of the voice (although I did get up and speak 3 times at the last general conference, and the decisions that were made about the topics I spoke on generally went the way I thought they should, so maybe my voice was a little "louder" than people who didn't get up and speak).

But part of the point is that some decisions haven't gone the way I want them to, but I prefer to be part of something bigger than just "myself". Or "my wife and my kids in some little tiny nuclear family that thinks we know best." We don't elevate individualism and in fact when it does happen (including in leadership) it's a cause for great concern.

What about the women in your church? They are "brethren" are they not?. Do they have equal voice to the men?
What about a recently baptized 13 year old. Do they have equal voice as a church elder or bishop?

[Josh]

What about the women in your church? They are "brethren" are they not?. Do they have equal voice to the men?

The church isn't a democracy but yes they can vote if they want to. By custom, they usually don't vote on certain things; sometimes if an issue is deemed particularly relevant to the women, and no women are voting, the presiding deacon will ask them to please vote.

What about a recently baptized 13 year old. Do they have equal voice as a church elder or bishop?

At the general conference (or in a member's meeting), yes... but generally speaking, at general conference, most of the youth are busy outside of the plenary sessions trying to find their friends or make new friends. A handful are interested in the sessions and might even get up and speak.

Overall, most of us feel we want to listen to our ordained leaders. In turn, the leaders want to hear from us. When the entire membership is assembled, the membership is on equal footing. Organisationally, it's a lot of work to get all the membership in church just for a meeting or a decision (or the entire church conference wide in one arena), and we are content to let what are in effect delegates figure a lot of things out.

[Ken]

What about the women in your church? They are "brethren" are they not?. Do they have equal voice to the men?

The church isn't a democracy but yes they can vote if they want to. By custom, they usually don't vote on certain things; sometimes if an issue is deemed particularly relevant to the women, and no women are voting, the presiding deacon will ask them to please vote.

What about a recently baptized 13 year old. Do they have equal voice as a church elder or bishop?

At the general conference (or in a member's meeting), yes... but generally speaking, at general conference, most of the youth are busy outside of the plenary sessions trying to find their friends or make new friends. A handful are interested in the sessions and might even get up and speak.

Overall, most of us feel we want to listen to our ordained leaders. In turn, the leaders want to hear from us. When the entire membership is assembled, the membership is on equal footing. Organisationally, it's a lot of work to get all the membership in church just for a meeting or a decision (or the entire church conference wide in one arena), and we are content to let what are in effect delegates figure a lot of things out.

My only point is that churches, even conservative churches are hierarchal just like everything else in life. The Christian ideal might be that all members are equal, have equal voice, and are heard equally. But that is never true in any church, or in life in general.

[barnhart]

Now that this thread is sufficiently off topic, I will offer a theory about the clothing and appearance of Anabaptist men and how distinct they do or do not appear.

I'm not sure the clothing and appearance practice of Anabaptists was ever designed around the concept of looking distinct. Much was set when the general fashion of the day was not that different, then it froze while society changed. I suspect it was more geared towards addressing specific trends or conditions as they arose instead of being organized around principle. The rules governing men were not as focused on clothing, rather things like occupation, what type of work is acceptable, what type of professional organizations are acceptable to join and so on.

[Ernie]

Now that this thread is sufficiently off topic, I will offer a theory about the clothing and appearance of Anabaptist men and how distinct they do or do not appear.

I'm not sure the clothing and appearance practice of Anabaptists was ever designed around the concept of looking distinct. Much was set when the general fashion of the day was not that different, then it froze while society changed. I suspect it was more geared towards addressing specific trends or conditions as they arose instead of being organized around principle. The rules governing men were not as focused on clothing, rather things like occupation, what type of work is acceptable, what type of professional organizations are acceptable to join and so on.

In general, I agree. The straight cut suit coat for men in the early 1900's was one exception.

I can't find the primary source quote, but I think it was already in the 1500's that some Anabaptists were known for wearing brown hats, because they continued with their older practice, and didn't see a need to keep up with the Jones's.

[Ken]

Now that this thread is sufficiently off topic, I will offer a theory about the clothing and appearance of Anabaptist men and how distinct they do or do not appear.

I'm not sure the clothing and appearance practice of Anabaptists was ever designed around the concept of looking distinct. Much was set when the general fashion of the day was not that different, then it froze while society changed. I suspect it was more geared towards addressing specific trends or conditions as they arose instead of being organized around principle. The rules governing men were not as focused on clothing, rather things like occupation, what type of work is acceptable, what type of professional organizations are acceptable to join and so on.

Same for women as well.