People who secretly disobey church teachings.

[Josh]

Say a nice family joins an ultra conservative church, with huge coverings tied under the chin, no internet, no music, the whole nine yards, as per the brotherhood agreement.

One spouse thinks what he does in his bedroom privately on his own time (movies, wine, whatever) is none of the church’s business, as long as he conducts himself properly the rest of the time…

I'd like to talk about this more generally.

Amongst seekers, some people join and blatantly break a rule or two. (I can think of someone in my own church circles who thinks photography is OK and regularly posts selfies and photographs of all kinds of things, and indeed does so on social media, which we also aren't supposed to use.) There is a certain amount of leeway given to such a person who simply lacks convictions in a specific area, but is also not sneaky about it and does not try to hide it.

Let's talk about the other situation. Someone joins a church and adopts very conservative practices and talks a good talk, but they are secretly doing things they would be ashamed for their brethren to know about. Amongst their closest associates, family, or spouse, or perhaps worldly friends, it is well known what they do. It could be drinking, it could be watching very worldly movies, or even something like pornography.

I have wrestled with what exactly this kind of person has going on in their life and what their relationshp with Jesus is. Is the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin? Part of the sin is not so much the act itself but the concealment of it. It seems Jesus had very harsh words for this kind of "religiosity".

My greatest concern for a situation like the one above is that the person does not have the grace of God operating in their life.

"Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

[Ken]

How would you classify Catholics who use birth control?

The church teaches that any use of birth control is intrinsically a sin and a deliberate violation of God's design.

Yet something like 90% of American Catholics use birth control or don't disapprove of it depending on what survey you want to believe. Although I'm not sure how secretive they are about it. It is pretty much an open secret.

[Josh]

How would you classify Catholics who use birth control?

The church teaches that any use of birth control is intrinsically a sin and a deliberate violation of God's design.

Yet something like 90% of American Catholics use birth control or don't disapprove of it depending on what survey you want to believe. Although I'm not sure how secretive they are about it. It is pretty much an open secret.

The topic at hand is people who secretly violate church teaching but talk and pretend they obey it all. See paragraph 2 in my post.

A Catholic who talked a big talk about not using bc yet secretly used it I would consider a person with a serious spiritual problem.

[Ken]

How would you classify Catholics who use birth control?

The church teaches that any use of birth control is intrinsically a sin and a deliberate violation of God's design.

Yet something like 90% of American Catholics use birth control or don't disapprove of it depending on what survey you want to believe. Although I'm not sure how secretive they are about it. It is pretty much an open secret.

The topic at hand is people who secretly violate church teaching but talk and pretend they obey it all. See paragraph 2 in my post.

A Catholic who talked a big talk about not using bc yet secretly used it I would consider a person with a serious spiritual problem.

So just like with Watergate, it's not the crime, its the coverup?

[Josh]

Well, it’s a specific “crime” of rampant dishonesty. Generally speaking Christians consider deceit a sin, and Anabaptists consider it a serious one.

[GoodGirl]

Just saying… lying complete scares me, to the OCD point.

That verse about liars not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven does me in, like I suppose it was meant to, for my own good!

[Ken]

Just saying… lying complete scares me, to the OCD point.

That verse about liars not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven does me in, like I suppose it was meant to, for my own good!

Lying is a whole topic itself. I consider it to be lying any time you intentionally deceive, even if you don't do it with actual words. For example, lies of omission. Others seem to think it is limited to saying actual words that are untrue.

[RZehr]

Just saying… lying complete scares me, to the OCD point.

That verse about liars not inheriting the kingdom of Heaven does me in, like I suppose it was meant to, for my own good!

Lying is a whole topic itself. I consider it to be lying any time you intentionally deceive, even if you don't do it with actual words. For example, lies of omission. Others seem to think it is limited to saying actual words that are untrue.

Do you believe that taking the fifth is lying? Do you think that when Jesus was on trial that he should have answered every question for fear of the sin of omission?

[Swiss Bro]

Ananias and Saphira were not killed because they did not share the entire proceeds from the sale of their land but because they pretended they did share the entire proceeds when they didn‘t.

[steve-in-kville]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Horning church not allow use of tobacco products, but yet people still did and leadership looked the other way? I kinda remember the KMF group we associated with was somewhat the same way.... as long as you kept it on the down low, no one cared. I think that has changed in the past ten years or so, though.