Joining a church vs Actually obeying the rules

[GoodGirl]

When you agree to follow the standards and have no intention of doing so, you are a hypocrite.

I just felt like I should say they completely intended to follow the rules when they joined.

Things just kind of went sideways.

[Josh]

When you agree to follow the standards and have no intention of doing so, you are a hypocrite.

I just felt like I should say they completely intended to follow the rules when they joined.

Things just kind of went sideways.

Generally speaking, Christianity isn’t based on “following the rules”. If that is what a new believer learns about, they have not been instructed correctly.

[Soloist]

When you agree to follow the standards and have no intention of doing so, you are a hypocrite.

I just felt like I should say they completely intended to follow the rules when they joined.

Things just kind of went sideways.

Generally speaking, Christianity isn’t based on “following the rules”. If that is what a new believer learns about, they have not been instructed correctly.

No but Christianity is based on honesty.

[NedFlanders]

If this couple was not raised in any Mennonite church, I would give that husband more time and space to work through these issues. Having said that, I think he may in fact feel convicted on these things if he feels compelled to keep them a secret. Maybe not guilty for the thing in and of itself, but guilty for doing what isn’t allowed. Keeping secrets is a big tell.
I’d like to see him converse with the leaders about what he is doing and go from there. Whatever they say, or whatever he chooses to do then, at least isn’t a secret. Once something isn’t a secret, then you can work out the next step.
Of course this will require trust in the leaders and courage. But if he has neither, he might as well save everyone and leave now, because he will surely leave later.

As someone who grew up in the world I would say it’s comments like these that keep a sincere seeker away from moderate or intermediate churches.

Sin is sin and we know it. If you can’t say that and just say that we need space and time because we come from the world - what you have effectively done is made it so we won’t trust you. And then the rest of your sentences beyond the first sentence you wrote are useless because you already lost our trust.

Someone doesn’t leave the world and literally forsake all for sugar coated Christianity. What we may have a hard time going through in our mind is not wanting to let the church down and our family and discourage others. But we need the truth and the reassurance that you will call sin - sin. Then when you deal with it in a loving helpful supportive way when we are willing and wanting to overcome such sin - relationships will be strengthened. Letting others get away with sin hinders relationships and trust.

Let’s not make the outside of the cup clean and give space and time for the inside.

[RZehr]

If I understand you right, you are saying two things?
1. That people not raised in the church should be treated exactly the same as those raised in the church.
2. That there should not be any leeway given on breaking the rules.

Does that roughly sum up what you didn't like about what I said?

[NedFlanders]

If I understand you right, you are saying two things?
1. That people not raised in the church should be treated exactly the same as those raised in the church.
2. That there should not be any leeway given on breaking the rules.

Does that roughly sum up what you didn't like about what I said?

Nope.

This is how I was saying an effective response might look like:

1. Treating one’s children exactly the same doesn’t work because they all respond differently having different personalities- likewise it takes relationship to respond effectively to each person.

2. Everyone is quite aware that many rules are broken by Mennonite raised members. I don’t think this is necessarily good because again it can easily break down trust when wrong doing is done while people turn a blind eye. The point isn’t not rigid rules but that sin is addressed.

Maybe you sounded close to #1 but not so much to #2.

[Ken]

If I understand you right, you are saying two things?
1. That people not raised in the church should be treated exactly the same as those raised in the church.
2. That there should not be any leeway given on breaking the rules.

Does that roughly sum up what you didn't like about what I said?

Nope.

This is how I was saying an effective response might look like:

1. Treating one’s children exactly the same doesn’t work because they all respond differently having different personalities- likewise it takes relationship to respond effectively to each person.

2. Everyone is quite aware that many rules are broken by Mennonite raised members. I don’t think this is necessarily good because again it can easily break down trust when wrong doing is done while people turn a blind eye. The point isn’t not rigid rules but that sin is addressed.

Maybe you sounded close to #1 but not so much to #2.

The reality is that children are going to be treated differently than adults. There is no avoiding this.

I think there was a survey here recently about what age children are baptized into the various churches represented here. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall the age of 14 mentioned as a common average age.

Now I would really be curious how the parents here of 14 year-olds would respond to a 14 year-old who says: "You know, I don't particularly agree with this one specific tenant of church teaching so I'm going to stop attending."

I know for CERTAIN that wouldn't have flown with my parents when I was growing up and age 14. And I suspect not with many others.

So while there may be different unwritten rules for new members versus those raised in the church. I expect part of it (maybe a big part) is that those raised in the church are often still children while those joining are often not.

[ohio jones]

Now I would really be curious how the parents here of 14 year-olds would respond to a 14 year-old who says: "You know, I don't particularly agree with this one specific tenant of church teaching so I'm going to stop attending."

Most parents would probably have rent their garments in response to that.

[Josh]

The reality is that children are going to be treated differently than adults. There is no avoiding this.

Young people (I prefer not to use the term "children" to refer to young adults or youth) eventually start making their own choices, and in fact, often end up under a microscope. In my church circles, youth typically want to join the church between age 11 and 14. The most key difference in whether such a young convert is genuinely converted or not is if they start showing a Christian spirit at school and towards their siblings.

As far as clothes, that usually doesn't change because... most 11 year olds are not going out shopping for themselves. Or 14 year olds.

I think there was a survey here recently about what age children are baptized into the various churches represented here. People can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall the age of 14 mentioned as a common average age.

Now I would really be curious how the parents here of 14 year-olds would respond to a 14 year-old who says: "You know, I don't particularly agree with this one specific tenant of church teaching so I'm going to stop attending."

This happens sometimes and generally speaking most parents tell their children as long as they live at home, they are expected to attend church. When they are an adult and want to move out on their own and support themselves they can decide to stop attending. This rarely happens.

I know for CERTAIN that wouldn't have flown with my parents when I was growing up and age 14. And I suspect not with many others.

So while there may be different unwritten rules for new members versus those raised in the church. I expect part of it (maybe a big part) is that those raised in the church are often still children while those joining are often not.

The fact is that the 11, 12, 14 year old crowd often wants really badly to join, for whatever reason. It's important to them.

[silentreader]

Now I would really be curious how the parents here of 14 year-olds would respond to a 14 year-old who says: "You know, I don't particularly agree with this one specific tenant of church teaching so I'm going to stop attending."

Most parents would probably have rent their garments in response to that.

Or at leased torn their hair.