Rosary Beads?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Bootstrap
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by Bootstrap »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:02 pm So what is the Biblical basis of communicating with the dead? Or the dead interceding? I suspect you have none, but I will give it a shot.
Seems like they are avoiding that question.

And they keep saying this is just like asking you or me to pray for them. But if they asked you or me, I don't think they would say things like:

Hail Judas, Full of Grace
Be with us now and at the moment of our death!

Or build something like this to do so:

Image

They seem to be avoiding that too.
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Soloist
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by Soloist »

The interesting thing is the similarities with Catholic/Orthodox thought to non-Christian religions
The “worshipping” at the Buddha image is quite a different matter. Buddhists revere the image of the Buddha as a gesture to the greatest, wisest, most benevolent, compassionate and holy man who has ever lived in this world. It is a historical fact that this great man actually lived in this world and has done a great service to mankind. The worship of the Buddha really means paying homage, veneration and devotion to Him and what He represents, and not to the stone or metal figure.
Sikhs believe in one god. They believe their “holy book” which they call “Guru Granth Sahib”, and treat as a living guru or teacher, is the “Word of God.” They claim that one of the distinctive features of their religion is that they have no idols or images in their temples (distinguishing themselves from their Hindu neighbors in India).
Their “holy book” has this, among other, strong words against idol worship:
“The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way. As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind. The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them. But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across?”3
However, they bow to and offer food to their “holy book.” They also use a fan to keep the flies off of this book and put it to bed at night. During celebrations, they parade this book around on a large platform for everyone to see.
However, this is an example of what Sikhs say in response to the accusation that they are worshiping an idol:
As for the argument that bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee is idol worship, I would ask, what is idol worship? Bowing to a stone that can teach nothing is idol worship. A Sikh prostrates to God alone. Satguru Sri Granth Sahib jee is the ‘Spoken revealed Word’ of God.
Muslims believe in one god. They believe all idols are evil and that worship of anything other than the “one true god” is evil. However, all Muslims pray facing the Kaaba, an ancient stone shrine in Mecca. When they go on their Pilgrimage to Mecca, they have to walk seven times around this shrine. During that time, they often touch and kiss the shrine and especially an ancient black stone embedded in the corner of the building.
Here is an example of how Muslims respond to the accusation that they are worshiping and idol for bowing down and kissing a black stone:
In Islam, every single act of worship must be directed to God alone, and the greatest sin in Islam is to direct even the tiniest part of worship to other than God. It is not allowed for a Muslim to have any kind of intermediary with God in worship, whether a living being, or an inanimate object. Muslims pray to Allah – Almighty God – alone, and they do not take things either as direct objects of worship, or indirect objects of worship through which God’s help is sought.
But in Hinduism, idols (murti) are worshipped as reminders of God. For example, every year, in Mumbai, Hindus bring clay images of Lord Ganesha to their homes, and worship him for a day or two before immersing the image in the sea. The ritual includes veneration (aradhana) which involves welcoming the divine, bathing him, offering him food, clothes, perfumes, lamps, incense, and finally words of praise. Here, the idol is seen as a vehicle — a physical, tangible carrier — of God.
The author is currently doing mission work in Haiti and I can email the full article if you are interested.
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by eccentric_rambler »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:51 am
eccentric_rambler wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:40 pm
Judas Maccabeus wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:02 pm So what is the Biblical basis of communicating with the dead? Or the dead interceding? I suspect you have none, but I will give it a shot.
That depends, do you believe Saul communicated with Samuel or with an apparition claiming to be Samuel?
Ah, yes. This is a common question posed to Bible school students. The answer generally accepted is that the medium was trying to call up her familiar spirit, or demon if you will, but Samuel appeared instead. This startled her.
Whichever conclusion you reach, I don't think it justifies Saul's attempt. It was just the first thing to come to mind with your question.
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by MaxPC »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:49 am
MaxPC wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:01 pm
eccentric_rambler wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:40 pm

That depends, do you believe Saul communicated with Samuel or with an apparition claiming to be Samuel?
Indeed. As I have mentioned previously, we are communicating with the living on the other side of the veil. We are not communicating with dead souls.
sorry, this does not answer the question, and attempts to get around the problem by redefining "dead." I would encourage you to try again. I am sure you have better than that.
JM, your question has indeed been answered in a number of ways from different posters here. If you struggle with comprehension of those answers, then my advice is for you to pray for understanding. If no understanding comes to you, then perhaps you are not ready to hear those answers.

At the end of the day, pray to the Lord as you can, not as you cannot. Pray for a stronger relationship with Jesus. Just pray. Follow Jesus' example. God is God of the living souls both in this physical domain and in the afterlife.
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:34 am JM, your question has indeed been answered in a number of ways from different posters here. If you struggle with comprehension of those answers, then my advice is for you to pray for understanding.
I don't think so. Simple, direct answers to simple, direct questions would be helpful. I know we all struggle with writing sometimes, but when people keep saying their questions have not been addressed, claiming you already answered them somewhere is not helpful.
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by MaxPC »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:49 am
MaxPC wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:01 pm
Indeed. As I have mentioned previously, we are communicating with the living on the other side of the veil. We are not communicating with dead souls.
sorry, this does not answer the question, and attempts to get around the problem by redefining "dead." I would encourage you to try again. I am sure you have better than that.
JM, your question has indeed been answered in a number of ways from different posters here. If you struggle with comprehension of those answers, then my advice is for you to pray for understanding. If no understanding comes to you, then perhaps you are not ready to hear those answers.

At the end of the day, pray to the Lord as you can, not as you cannot. Pray for a stronger relationship with Jesus. Just pray. Follow Jesus' example. God is God of the living souls both in this physical domain and in the afterlife.
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Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by Bootstrap »

Soloist wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:02 am The interesting thing is the similarities with Catholic/Orthodox thought to non-Christian religions
Including colorful statues. Sometimes with crowns and gold. It's not "just like asking someone to pray for you". Nobody would do that using images of Judas or me that look like this. Nobody would manufacture special prayer beads to ask Judas or me to pray for them.

Image

Image
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by Bootstrap »

Judas Maccabeus wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:49 am sorry, this does not answer the question, and attempts to get around the problem by redefining "dead." I would encourage you to try again. I am sure you have better than that.
Exactly.

I think a direct answer would start by saying they believe it is OK to pray to and communicate people who have died, because they are still alive.

And a direct answer would then go on to provide biblical verses saying that's something Christians should do. Which is precisely what people are asking for. To me, the Bible clearly says we should not attempt to communicate with people who have died. If we need to be more precise, "people who have died", with respect to their physical bodies, is what we mean.

A direct answer does not say it's just like asking you or me to pray. Because it emphatically is not. Prayer beads, statues, bowing down before Mary and lighting candles before her ... this is not the same thing at all. If I did the same thing with images of Judas Maccabeus, I'm sure we would all object to that. Even after he leaves his physical body behind, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Even though I do believe that people who have died in their physical bodies are still alive before God.

So why is this not objectionable for Mary? I think this starts with "to Catholics, because Catholics believe" ... and odds are, Mennonites will disagree, but that's the way to give a direct answer to direct questions. Some of the resources people are pointing us to dance around these questions. Perhaps some Catholics are also uncomfortable with this ...
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by ohio jones »

MaxPC wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:34 am Follow Jesus' example.
Who did Jesus pray to, and who did he teach his followers to pray to?
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Re: Rosary Beads?

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:41 pm
MaxPC wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:34 am Follow Jesus' example.
Who did Jesus pray to, and who did he teach his followers to pray to?
In the definitional context that prayer is conversation: Jesus conversed with Moses and Elijah.

In the definitional context that prayer is supplication and worship, Jesus spoke with the rest of the Trinity. I recommend a themed Bible study and reading of the Early Church Fathers if one is serious in attaining an understanding of this topic.

If one is not interested, struggles with comprehension of the information, or is simply far too busy, then I recommend prayer, more prayer, and even more prayer.

Enhancing one’s prayer life is the proper goal of any devotion, regardless of one’s culture or denomination. Pray as you can; not as you cannot. Use the devotions and prayers that will draw you closest to God for that is the purpose of all Christian prayers.
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