A YouTuber visits a Nationwide Fellowship church

[temporal1]

It is hard to imagine a people who gather as a church to have clothing rules as a center of focus.

Really? That is not real life.

Be careful assuming motivation especially because of outward appearance -
that, I think, more accurately describes the Pharisee problem.

i appreciate your pov. thank you.

[Sudsy]

It is hard to imagine a people who gather as a church to have clothing rules as a center of focus. Really? That is not real life.

Be careful assuming motivation especially because of outward appearance - that, I think, more accurately describes the Pharisee problem.

We had the same thing going on in my early years of Pentecostalism. There were Christians who gave a great deal of attention to the outward appearance of other Christians and made judgments on the quality of Christian behaviour with a very 'Pharisee attitude'. They took great pride in just how set apart from the world that they looked. And the same shows up here when you see certain posters loving to discuss how Christians should dress and how their group is showing the way in this area.

I do think there is something to be said for not drawing the wrong kind of attention to oneself by one's outward appearance but I also think wearing things like cape dresses is doing just that. Especially when it obviously sets Christians apart from the vast majority of professing Christians.

One can say that I, too, am making judgments on where our priorities should be when I talk about evangelism, which they have. So, setting being like a Pharisee aside, as followers of Christ, where did Jesus focus His attention ? Was it not the salvation of the lost ? Did Jesus say anything about outward adornment for His followers ? As GC always says, think about it.

Christ’s main message was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. He said to enter into the kingdom you must be born again. His call was to deny self, take up your cross and follow Him or you cannot be His disciple. To forsake all. If you seek to save your life you will lose it but if you lose your life for His sake and the Gospel then you will save and find it. So those who seek salvation first or preach salvation as the Gospel aren’t focused on Christ and His message. Salvation is a product of the transformation. He said seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and then all these things will be added unto you - not salvation first. Christ said to make the inside of the cup clean not the outside while the inside is still filthy. Not to focus on clothing without dealing with what’s inside.

All of this has been preached at conservative Mennonite settings I’ve ever been but no where else I’ve ever been.

My experience doesn’t mean all conservative Mennonite churches do this and neither does my experience where this was not taught anywhere else mean no one else’s main focus is on Christ.

But since conservative Mennonites with uniform dress is the ONLY place I’ve been where Christ and His message is actually the center of focus you won’t find me anywhere else. I never sought Mennonites coming from the world - I sought Christ and found Christ focused on, taught, and the markers of which He said would tell you it was His body of their fruits and love one to another actually lived out in transformed lives in the conservative Mennonites.

And furthermore - Evangelism means to share the Gospel and since every other denomination I’ve come in contact with shared the good news of salvation instead of Christ’s Gospel of the kingdom of God - it would seem to me - again from my experience - that conservative Mennonites are the only ones I’ve seen sharing the Gospel Christ taught - therefore being the only ones with a focus on Christ.

I can handle biblically principled clothing for that sake all day, every day - because it is a result of seeking His will and righteousness. Yes some can do it for the wrong reasons and it is not the only dress that is God honouring but why wouldn’t I want to join together with God’s peculiar people?!!!

I would have to disagree with you if I'm understanding you correctly. You stated that entrance into the kingdom of God requires being born again according to Jesus. I agree but then you say 'those who seek salvation first or preach salvation as the Gospel aren’t focused on Christ and His message'. That, to me, is a contradiction. Jesus said - John 3:3 AMP - “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.” So, salvation or being born again is a pre-requisite to being able to enter into Kingdom life and is very much focused on Christ and His message.

If what you say is what 'has been preached at conservative Mennonite settings I’ve ever been', then I would say they have the cart before the horse in how I understand the scripture speaks of the what comes first regarding salvation. One must enter into the Kingdom way of life first (be born again) before one can rightly go further in living out the Kingdom way of life.

Menno wrote this -

We must be born from above, must be changed and renewed in our hearts, transplanted from the unrighteous and evil nature of Adam, into the true and good nature of Christ, or we can never be saved by any means, whether human or divine. Wherever true repentance and the new creature are not (I speak of adults), man must be eternally lost; this is incontrovertibly clear. Upon this every one may confidently rely, who does not wish to deceive his soul.

My understanding is the Gospel of Salvation is the entry point into the Gospel of the Kingdom. Some only focus on the Gospel of Salvation as one's ticket to escape hell and get to heaven when they die. But this is not the Gospel of Salvation as the true Gospel of Salvation results in the beginning of a new person. A person who now is concerned with living out the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Are we on the same page on this ? Or not ?

[ohio jones]

Are we on the same page on this ? Or not ?

I moved a post to Bunny Trails, so no, you are not on the same page.

[Verity]

This thread was interesting. I grieve for what GG and her family went through. What you see or seek is not always what you get. But God can work good out of those painful experiences. I joined an Eastern church after visiting a variety of plain churches. My upbringing helped me to think things through and embrace fully what we believed the Bible taught. Eastern congregations are not all consistent with the standards, although they try very hard to maintain that appearance. For several years I was member of a moderate Eastern congregation that had several members from non-Mennonite background. They were for the most part accepting and open. I married someone who grew up in Eastern, from a respected family that was very involved in the church. We started our family in one of Eastern's most conservative congregations, fully believing this would be a safe place to raise our family. But there were things that troubled both of us from the start- a lot of control, secrecy, fostering fear and many troubled young people from purportedly good homes. We had a sibling that was molested by a church member and were disturbed at how it was handled. Through the years there were many more such incidents, until sexual abuse (within the "safe conservative") church began to touch our own children. We now were first hand witnesses and could not deny what was happening or how it was being handled any longer. After a grueling two years of trying- HARD!- to work with all of the leaders and committees we were counseled by many trusted friends within and outside of Eastern to quietly leave.

With a lot of prayer and counsel we chose to join Nationwide Fellowship. It wasn't a drastic change culturally, but provided many of the structural- may I say political?- changes we desired. We were upfront with the NFC why we wanted a change and what we were looking for. As is their practice, they took it to the brethren and let them discuss the pros and cons of us joining. That meant a lot to us, having everything laid out in the open after two years of silencing and secrecy.

Having been in NFC for a time, there are many similarities in practice to Eastern's standard. But the system is very different. In Eastern, any and all concerns must be channeled through the ministry. Sharing concerns among brethren is taken as not being loyal, and that is serious. Our family had been faithful church builders and supporters for decades, and it took only one serious concern- taken to the proper authorities- to ruin our standing. We followed the directives given but were still disciplined because the consensus was that we were not loyal. The majority of the congregation there still does not know why we left.

Contrast that to Nationwide where concerns are expected to be shared on a congregational level. There is far more transparency and working together to resolve problems. Are they perfect? By no means! And certainly not now that we- imperfect beings that we are- have joined. But each member and each voice is valued and given a place, however unique that place may be. When standards need adjusted, they are worked on as a group and there is an official change to the standard booklet. In Eastern, everyone is kept guessing as to what the current official standard actually is and this makes it a real challenge for those of us who didn't grow up learning the subtle unspoken expectations. Even many who did grow up in Eastern struggle to understand.

We have many good friends in Eastern (and other Mennonite groups) that we related to regularly. If an Eastern congregation is your nearest option for a conservative church, you can learn a lot there and be blessed. Eastern does have a great teaching program. Just be on guard for the politics and stay grounded on Truth.

[RZehr]

Having never been a part of either Eastern or Nationwide, this fits my impression of them.

[Ernie]

I have 3 daughters ages 17-25. They all dress modestly in both senses of the term. The two younger ones delight in going "thrifting" and finding great deals in second hand clothing. Normally you'd see them around school or university wearing jeans, sweaters or sweatshirts, with sneakers or boots and fleece or rain jackets. Every bit as modest as any cape dress or more so. They will dress up on occasion but nothing that the average person would consider immodest.

And summer time???
The pilgrim church has never used the perspective of "the average person" to decide what is modest or to determine what makes for good values.

Would any of them be interested in joining a conservative Anabaptist church? I doubt it for a long list of reasons but among them is the mandatory uniform which none of them would be interested in.

Most Plain Anabaptists who are walking with the Lord, have no interest in having people join the church, who are not interested in a mandatory uniform. This does limit their "fishing pond" considerably.

But... they don't have to deal with many of the things that American society needs to deal with and are consequently able to raise a good number of their descendants to be people who are walking with the Lord. So in the end, they may be able to help just as many people to walk with the Lord, as those without the mandatory uniform. I think that the majority of spiritually minded Plain Anabaptists should probably keep on doing what they have been doing for centuries. My observation is that most generally lose more than they gain, if they try something different. And by being who they are, they do inspire people all over the world to consider their ways and live more diligently for the Lord, even if few join the Anabaptist churches.

I do believe a few Anabaptists are called by God to break out of the mold and do some things a bit differently then how things are normally done. I believe that those who are truly called by God will be able gain more than they lose if they take up the call of God on their life.

[Ernie]

If an Eastern congregation is your nearest option for a conservative church, you can learn a lot there and be blessed. Eastern does have a great teaching program. Just be on guard for the politics and stay grounded on Truth.

Amen to that.

There are a number of Plain Anabaptist conferences or fellowships that I may encourage someone to visit and get some good teaching (most of the time) but I do not encourage people to join these churches, for the reasons mentioned in this thread as well as other reasons.