A YouTuber visits a Nationwide Fellowship church

[Josh]

Outsiders often perceive it as being clothing focused simply because that’s what they can see. There is usually a lot more than that going on.

[Sudsy]

In fact, in my context of coming from the world I love the simple uniform dress found in ultra churches because most everyone is dressed the same - it lends to an environment where thinking on what to wear, looking at outward differences, tier classes by clothing, being distracted by flamboyant people showing off there new clothes has stopped in my life. Clothing is one of furthest things from focus. It is so beautiful - but again perspective- it isn’t legalistic when people are excited to do by the right motivation.

But that isn't how it works in real life. As people here have relayed in their person experiences, there are conservative groups who are obsessively focused on enforcing specific clothing rules. It is not 'the furthest thing from focus" It is the center of focus.

It is hard to imagine a people who gather as a church to have clothing rules as a center of focus. Really? That is not real life.

Be careful assuming motivation especially because of outward appearance - that, I think, more accurately describes the Pharisee problem.

We had the same thing going on in my early years of Pentecostalism. There were Christians who gave a great deal of attention to the outward appearance of other Christians and made judgments on the quality of Christian behaviour with a very 'Pharisee attitude'. They took great pride in just how set apart from the world that they looked. And the same shows up here when you see certain posters loving to discuss how Christians should dress and how their group is showing the way in this area.

I do think there is something to be said for not drawing the wrong kind of attention to oneself by one's outward appearance but I also think wearing things like cape dresses is doing just that. Especially when it obviously sets Christians apart from the vast majority of professing Christians.

One can say that I, too, am making judgments on where our priorities should be when I talk about evangelism, which they have. So, setting being like a Pharisee aside, as followers of Christ, where did Jesus focus His attention ? Was it not the salvation of the lost ? Did Jesus say anything about outward adornment for His followers ? As GC always says, think about it.

[Josh]

Sudsy, the most active church in evangelism where I live is the most conservative Pentecostal church. (This crowd doesn't even wear wedding rings and the women keep their hair up as opposed to letting it hang down like the more liberal Apostolic Pentecostals might do.)

In particular, they seem interested in reaching the lost, as opposed to getting people who are already Christian to come to their church. One of their pastor-evangelists is a guidance counsellor at a public school. He finds ways to reach the students there. Some of the other other students are busy holding Bible studies and getting their friends to come to church. They are experiencing a significant increase in conversions and regular attendees at their church.

Holiness and evangelism tend to go together.

[ken_sylvania]

Eastern will flat out forbid an opaque covering as a sign of liberalism and point to churches that allow it will eventually go to the veil and then get smaller and smaller.

By and large that's correct but some districts make occasional exceptions.

[Ken]

But that isn't how it works in real life. As people here have relayed in their person experiences, there are conservative groups who are obsessively focused on enforcing specific clothing rules. It is not 'the furthest thing from focus" It is the center of focus.

It is hard to imagine a people who gather as a church to have clothing rules as a center of focus. Really? That is not real life.

Be careful assuming motivation especially because of outward appearance - that, I think, more accurately describes the Pharisee problem.

I assume nothing about motivation. I simply hear the testimony of others such as on this very thread which suggests that you are wrong. Rules and obsessions about clothing do take a central place in at least some conservative groups. For example, from a few pages upstream:

To not go deep… one of my weirdest memories was having to hold up the fabric I had bought for dresses in front of a small group of people to be approved or disapproved. All the fabric was well within church standards (in fact, some ladies there already had dresses in the exact same fabric). But they wanted to make sure my husband approved of each one.

Once they suggested I have a dress made “inside out” so the teeny tiny flowers would be on the inside, not the outside, which honestly would have looked dumb~ the inside of the fabric was obviously the inside, you know?

When we finally left, I got rid of some dresses, because to use a worldly term, they were ‘triggering’ and I couldn’t wear them.

[Ernie]

I do think there is something to be said for not drawing the wrong kind of attention to oneself by one's outward appearance but I also think wearing things like cape dresses is doing just that. Especially when it obviously sets Christians apart from the vast majority of professing Christians.

But the majority of professing Christian women in the west wore cape dresses at one time... Why should those who want to keep doing the same thing that they've been doing, rather than trying to keep up with the Jones's, be designated as the culprits?

[Ernie]

But that isn't how it works in real life. As people here have relayed in their person experiences, there are conservative groups who are obsessively focused on enforcing specific clothing rules. It is not 'the furthest thing from focus" It is the center of focus.

It is hard to imagine a people who gather as a church to have clothing rules as a center of focus. Really? That is not real life.

Be careful assuming motivation especially because of outward appearance - that, I think, more accurately describes the Pharisee problem.

I assume nothing about motivation. I simply hear the testimony of others such as on this very thread which suggests that you are wrong. Rules and obsessions about clothing do take a central place in at least some conservative groups. For example, from a few pages upstream:

To not go deep… one of my weirdest memories was having to hold up the fabric I had bought for dresses in front of a small group of people to be approved or disapproved. All the fabric was well within church standards (in fact, some ladies there already had dresses in the exact same fabric). But they wanted to make sure my husband approved of each one.

Once they suggested I have a dress made “inside out” so the teeny tiny flowers would be on the inside, not the outside, which honestly would have looked dumb~ the inside of the fabric was obviously the inside, you know?

When we finally left, I got rid of some dresses, because to use a worldly term, they were ‘triggering’ and I couldn’t wear them.

I think it is fair to say that clothing is "a focus" in some Plain Anabaptist churches and possibly "the main focus" in an even smaller percentage of churches.

But I think it is also accurate to say that most Plain Anabaptists spend more time thinking about God, Jesus, the scriptures, and some of the 800 other commands in the New Testament, than what they do about "proper clothing".

[Sudsy]

Sudsy, the most active church in evangelism where I live is the most conservative Pentecostal church. (This crowd doesn't even wear wedding rings and the women keep their hair up as opposed to letting it hang down like the more liberal Apostolic Pentecostals might do.)

In particular, they seem interested in reaching the lost, as opposed to getting people who are already Christian to come to their church. One of their pastor-evangelists is a guidance counsellor at a public school. He finds ways to reach the students there. Some of the other other students are busy holding Bible studies and getting their friends to come to church. They are experiencing a significant increase in conversions and regular attendees at their church.

Holiness and evangelism tend to go together.

That is the kind of church that would appeal to me. Although I would have some different views in some of their Pentecostalism, I would prefer to be part of them than the 'easy beliefism Evangelicals' for sure. And any that I have heard about that are similar to what you say do not have a list of 'must dos' to be part of their group. In my experience, of course many years ago, those kind of Pentecostals did not have written formal church membership but they all emphasized the need to be baptised in the Spirit with the accompanying speaking in tongues.

The church you described in your opening paragraph sounds exactly like the Oneness Pentecostal church here in town that my previous father-in-law pastored for many years. The women had their hair up in a 'Marge Simpson' beehive style. However, this church was a bit 'ethnic challenged' (mainly Yugoslavians) and never really were evangelical and today are likely soon to close. I would love to see an Evangelical group (even Pentecostal) take over the building as it is only a couple blocks away from where I live.

[Ken]

But the majority of professing Christian women in the west wore cape dresses at one time...

Is that actually true?

There is a tremendous amount of artwork and photography and written descriptions of women's dress going back all the way to medieval times and before. Cape dresses as they are worn today by conservative Mennonites seem to be mostly a 20th Century development.

My own family tree is full of 19th Century Mennonite women and in the photos we have of them, they are all dressed modestly, but I don't see any cape dresses. They are all dressed in what appears to be the normal fashions of the time. A lot of them aren't wearing dresses at all, but rather long skirts and blouses.

[NedFlanders]

But that isn't how it works in real life. As people here have relayed in their person experiences, there are conservative groups who are obsessively focused on enforcing specific clothing rules. It is not 'the furthest thing from focus" It is the center of focus.

It is hard to imagine a people who gather as a church to have clothing rules as a center of focus. Really? That is not real life.

Be careful assuming motivation especially because of outward appearance - that, I think, more accurately describes the Pharisee problem.

We had the same thing going on in my early years of Pentecostalism. There were Christians who gave a great deal of attention to the outward appearance of other Christians and made judgments on the quality of Christian behaviour with a very 'Pharisee attitude'. They took great pride in just how set apart from the world that they looked. And the same shows up here when you see certain posters loving to discuss how Christians should dress and how their group is showing the way in this area.

I do think there is something to be said for not drawing the wrong kind of attention to oneself by one's outward appearance but I also think wearing things like cape dresses is doing just that. Especially when it obviously sets Christians apart from the vast majority of professing Christians.

One can say that I, too, am making judgments on where our priorities should be when I talk about evangelism, which they have. So, setting being like a Pharisee aside, as followers of Christ, where did Jesus focus His attention ? Was it not the salvation of the lost ? Did Jesus say anything about outward adornment for His followers ? As GC always says, think about it.

Christ’s main message was the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. He said to enter into the kingdom you must be born again. His call was to deny self, take up your cross and follow Him or you cannot be His disciple. To forsake all. If you seek to save your life you will lose it but if you lose your life for His sake and the Gospel then you will save and find it. So those who seek salvation first or preach salvation as the Gospel aren’t focused on Christ and His message. Salvation is a product of the transformation. He said seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and then all these things will be added unto you - not salvation first. Christ said to make the inside of the cup clean not the outside while the inside is still filthy. Not to focus on clothing without dealing with what’s inside.

All of this has been preached at conservative Mennonite settings I’ve ever been but no where else I’ve ever been.

My experience doesn’t mean all conservative Mennonite churches do this and neither does my experience where this was not taught anywhere else mean no one else’s main focus is on Christ.

But since conservative Mennonites with uniform dress is the ONLY place I’ve been where Christ and His message is actually the center of focus you won’t find me anywhere else. I never sought Mennonites coming from the world - I sought Christ and found Christ focused on, taught, and the markers of which He said would tell you it was His body of their fruits and love one to another actually lived out in transformed lives in the conservative Mennonites.

And furthermore - Evangelism means to share the Gospel and since every other denomination I’ve come in contact with shared the good news of salvation instead of Christ’s Gospel of the kingdom of God - it would seem to me - again from my experience - that conservative Mennonites are the only ones I’ve seen sharing the Gospel Christ taught - therefore being the only ones with a focus on Christ.

I can handle biblically principled clothing for that sake all day, every day - because it is a result of seeking His will and righteousness. Yes some can do it for the wrong reasons and it is not the only dress that is God honouring but why wouldn’t I want to join together with God’s peculiar people?!!!