steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:56 am
I don't want to turn this into a conservative Mennonite bashing thread, but yes, I have seen similar situations as Grace mentioned. I am of the persuasion that every strict religious environment has this issue, Anabaptist or not.
Where I went to grad. school we were told quite sternly:
Do not consider demonic influence until all other possible causes of the problem have been conclusively ruled out.
And I have never seen a time when they were conclusively ruled out. Mostly, disease and mental conditions are simply a result of the fall, and the resultant fact that our bodies and minds are imperfect, and likely to fail at times. Nothing special just the general condition of mankind.
steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:56 am
I don't want to turn this into a conservative Mennonite bashing thread, but yes, I have seen similar situations as Grace mentioned. I am of the persuasion that every strict religious environment has this issue, Anabaptist or not.
Where I went to grad. school we were told quite sternly:
Do not consider demonic influence until all other possible causes of the problem have been conclusively ruled out.
And I have never seen a time when they were conclusively ruled out. Mostly, disease and mental conditions are simply a result of the fall, and the resultant fact that our bodies and minds are imperfect, and likely to fail at times. Nothing special just the general condition of mankind.
Interesting. After the fall during Jesus ministry it certainly seemed common to consider demon possession and casting them out was part of the Great Commission. Of course there can be numerous causes to mental issues but I think Satan has conveniently influenced many denominations to rule his realm out so they may continue living in souls, or harassing them & oppressing them. I appreciate those that actually can discern the difference and set people free as Jesus commissioned His disciples to do so.
JayP wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:58 pm
Valerie, I think you miss the point a few of us are making.
I'm not saying there aren't demons. I'm saying from what I know about it, unfortunately it is not as simple as any godly person saying "be gone" and it works. I don't have all or even remotely MANY of the answers. Maybe for the average person, i.e. the typical sinner, our faith, our saying 'no' suffices. I don't know.
But I do know this. You might not agree with Catholicism, I'm okay with that. You can't deny they've clearly had experience with it. And if they restrict exorcisms to a handful of carefully selected, carefully educated and trained, (and I think this VERY significant) carefully WATCHED OVER BY OTHERS including the local bishop it's because it is hard, and dangerous.
Respectfully, there's a lot of 'handy' people I still won't let upgrade my electrical service, why would I want just anyone doing an exorcism?
And we do KNOW, let me repeat, we KNOW plenty of cases of people suffering at the hands of folks "claiming' they are fighting demon possessions.
So since damage can be done, let's be like doctors, who first in the Hippocratic Oath say "first, do no harm".
So when "all else" fails, WHO exactly do you trust to be qualified to discern demonic presence in a soul? Certainly the new testament gives much support of this activity and perhaps there is damage done when trying to cast them out- there were examples of this in the new testament - that did not mean the demons were not there! The examples of lack of success had to do with a couple of things,: the demons in one case knew the people attempting to cast them out did not have "Jesus" in them, & 2) Jesus said "this kind" cannot come out but by prayer and fasting. So obviously it does not always work.
So what do you suggest? Personally we come from a faith background that seems to be able to discern demonic presence than other denominations. If I had a child afflicted, shouldn't I, like those who came to Jesus, look for someone qualified (as you put it) to set them free? I think what we face today is a lack of the power to do so. Spiritual warfare is just that.
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:52 am
So when "all else" fails, WHO exactly do you trust to be qualified to discern demonic presence in a soul?
Thanks to all for keeping this thread relatively on track.
Valerie brings forth a good question. One that scares me in a way. I've seen too many "self-ordained" experts on matters like this
Does it scare you as much to have the Church at large so weak and powerless that they cannot cast out demons? The early church did. One thing I keep thinking about is how often Jesus was frustrated with the lack of faith among those who were following Him. "How long must I suffer you?". No we will medicate because that seems to be all we can do. No wonder He said "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith in all the earth?" Note He didn't say "belief," He was referring to faith with power from on High.
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:52 am
So when "all else" fails, WHO exactly do you trust to be qualified to discern demonic presence in a soul?
Thanks to all for keeping this thread relatively on track.
Valerie brings forth a good question. One that scares me in a way. I've seen too many "self-ordained" experts on matters like this
Does it scare you as much to have the Church at large so weak and powerless that they cannot cast out demons? The early church did. One thing I keep thinking about is how often Jesus was frustrated with the lack of faith among those who were following Him. "How long must I suffer you?". No we will medicate because that seems to be all we can do. No wonder He said "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith in all the earth?" Note He didn't say "belief," He was referring to faith with power from on High.
If indeed they are really demons. Jesus would know that immediately, his followers not so much. If no one other than Jesus could help, it would seem other avenues were tried and were unsuccessful. If a problem can be cured with medical treatment it is not a demon, period, as medicine would have no power over demons. If all other avenues fail, consider the demonic. Would you like to try exorcism for someone who has a chemical imbalance? It won't work, and can do more harm than good.
What you are proposing sounds pious, but in practical ministry, going to exorcism right away can do more harm than good. If I really thought it was a real demon, yes, but make very sure first. Rule out other possibilities.
Thanks to all for keeping this thread relatively on track.
Valerie brings forth a good question. One that scares me in a way. I've seen too many "self-ordained" experts on matters like this
Does it scare you as much to have the Church at large so weak and powerless that they cannot cast out demons? The early church did. One thing I keep thinking about is how often Jesus was frustrated with the lack of faith among those who were following Him. "How long must I suffer you?". No we will medicate because that seems to be all we can do. No wonder He said "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith in all the earth?" Note He didn't say "belief," He was referring to faith with power from on High.
If indeed they are really demons. Jesus would know that immediately, his followers not so much. If no one other than Jesus could help, it would seem other avenues were tried and were unsuccessful. If a problem can be cured with medical treatment it is not a demon, period, as medicine would have no power over demons. If all other avenues fail, consider the demonic. Would you like to try exorcism for someone who has a chemical imbalance? It won't work, and can do more harm than good.
What you are proposing sounds pious, but in practical ministry, going to exorcism right away can do more harm than good. If I really thought it was a real demon, yes, but make very sure first. Rule out other possibilities.
The Great Commission Jesus told them to cast out demons. So His expectation was for them to be able to do so. When he sent out "the seventy" they came back claiming "even the spirits were subject to us" so apparently it was pretty common then and why it wouldn't be now is questionable
Does it scare you as much to have the Church at large so weak and powerless that they cannot cast out demons? The early church did. One thing I keep thinking about is how often Jesus was frustrated with the lack of faith among those who were following Him. "How long must I suffer you?". No we will medicate because that seems to be all we can do. No wonder He said "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith in all the earth?" Note He didn't say "belief," He was referring to faith with power from on High.
If indeed they are really demons. Jesus would know that immediately, his followers not so much. If no one other than Jesus could help, it would seem other avenues were tried and were unsuccessful. If a problem can be cured with medical treatment it is not a demon, period, as medicine would have no power over demons. If all other avenues fail, consider the demonic. Would you like to try exorcism for someone who has a chemical imbalance? It won't work, and can do more harm than good.
What you are proposing sounds pious, but in practical ministry, going to exorcism right away can do more harm than good. If I really thought it was a real demon, yes, but make very sure first. Rule out other possibilities.
The Great Commission Jesus told them to cast out demons. So His expectation was for them to be able to do so. When he sent out "the seventy" they came back claiming "even the spirits were subject to us" so apparently it was pretty common then and why it wouldn't be now is questionable
It seems to be more common in areas where witchcraft and devil worship abound, and less common in areas with more Christian influence. It certainly seems reasonable to me that there would be few instances of demon possession among a society of people who serve Jesus Christ.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:03 pm
It seems to be more common in areas where witchcraft and devil worship abound, and less common in areas with more Christian influence. It certainly seems reasonable to me that there would be few instances of demon possession among a society of people who serve Jesus Christ.
I agree. Americans in general don’t seem to believe in spiritual beings at all. It isn’t that they are actively seeking out the dark arts for help. Generally Americans are skeptical of such things being real. Generally Americans simply live for the flesh, and for the here and now. Functionally they are atheists and materialists. Other than briefly glomming onto some spiritual fad occasionally for social medias sake.
The only cases where i believe I saw possession was in the Middle East, in Oman, which has heavy duty connections to east Africa. The people I saw who I thought were possessed wanted nothing to do with Jesus. You do not do exorcism in those cases, you must have someone willing to believe, or be in a state where they are disabled and their family brings them.
I knew a woman who could levitate, according to the neighbors.
Matthew 12:43-45 suggests that unless the person shows a willingness to believe in Jesus, so that the Holy Sprit enters, chasing demons out is simply a waste of time.
Preforming an exorcism on someone who suffers from a physical disorder is a waste of time, and has the potential for harm. That is why one should exclude the physical before jumping to the conclusion that is is possession. If medical treatment works, it is not possession. If it is possession, it will not work.
My position is informed by working alongside long term missionary workers. I believe this represents an attempt to steer between the extreme.
