"English" who join the Amish

[Josh]

I'm not sure I would consider Unity and Smyrna, Old Order. Meetings are in English, they have meeting houses, Sunday School...and if you're doing Sunday School, you've left the Old Order camp.

That would be fair enough, although as I understand it they only switched to English once they had seekers show up who didn't know German.

[Martin]

I'm not sure I would consider Unity and Smyrna, Old Order. Meetings are in English, they have meeting houses, Sunday School...and if you're doing Sunday School, you've left the Old Order camp.

That would be fair enough, although as I understand it they only switched to English once they had seekers show up who didn't know German.

Do you know if Delano uses English? FWIW, I'm not against using English, just the majority of Old Orders I interact with don't preach in English. Too modern and then the whole mustache thing in ME, not Amish either.

[Verity]

Sorry, somehow I missed this. I'm going to ask my daughter to see if she can find the exact quote but if my memory is correct is was something about being free with smiles to strange men. So a slightly different context, perhaps?

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

I don't think it's entirely ridiculous...except for "he's not a Christian, therefore don't smile". There are some creepy men out there and as Mennonites, we are naive about it. The lady folk in my family have had some scary experiences and they are "smilers". I've had discussions with my family about proper touch for instance, and where it's out of bounds. Scripture says to "be wise as serpents, harmless as doves".

"Those prepared are often spared". We have children who were molested, it is not a joke. They were taught, too. But it was church members who did it, people they thought they needed to listen to. With our younger ones we are trying to make sure they know boundaries apply to everyone. If you've ever listened to Michael Pearl (who I don't totally endorse, but he is a hoot to listen to sometimes) he told his children if someone made inappropriate advances you pop their eye balls out. Someone laughingly said that would make it easy to identify the offender!

God doesn't always choose to spare His children but good can come even out of the worst experiences. Our children are certainly stronger and more compassionate because of what they experienced and help to protect those who are naive.

[Josh]

I'm not sure I would consider Unity and Smyrna, Old Order. Meetings are in English, they have meeting houses, Sunday School...and if you're doing Sunday School, you've left the Old Order camp.

That would be fair enough, although as I understand it they only switched to English once they had seekers show up who didn't know German.

Do you know if Delano uses English? FWIW, I'm not against using English, just the majority of Old Orders I interact with don't preach in English. Too modern and then the whole mustache thing in ME, not Amish either.

Considering Delano is about ⅓ converts from the world last I heard (including one of their bishops), I suspect many of them only speak English. I do not believe they have added a fluency requirement in standard German before one can be ordained, nor require converts to converse in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Delano would be the most conservative Mennonite group there is (and probably amongst Amish too); for example, they don't use LED headlamps, solar electric fence chargers, or drivers. If they need to go somewhere they only use public transportation (bus or train). Etc. No phone in the community; phone calls can be placed from a public coin operated phone.

[Martin]

That would be fair enough, although as I understand it they only switched to English once they had seekers show up who didn't know German.

Do you know if Delano uses English? FWIW, I'm not against using English, just the majority of Old Orders I interact with don't preach in English. Too modern and then the whole mustache thing in ME, not Amish either.

Considering Delano is about ⅓ converts from the world last I heard (including one of their bishops), I suspect many of them only speak English. I do not believe they have added a fluency requirement in standard German before one can be ordained, nor require converts to converse in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Delano would be the most conservative Mennonite group there is (and probably amongst Amish too); for example, they don't use LED headlamps, solar electric fence chargers, or drivers. If they need to go somewhere they only use public transportation (bus or train). Etc. No phone in the community; phone calls can be placed from a public coin operated phone.

And Delano recently started a daughter community????? I have Amish friends who just moved there and I have no means of contacting them. And is this the community where they don't have screens on the windows? I would have interest in getting a tour group together and visiting these groups in TN and Kentucky. They intrique me, but I'm pretty averse to using an outhouse.

[Josh]

And Delano recently started a daughter community????? I have Amish friends who just moved there and I have no means of contacting them. And is this the community where they don't have screens on the windows? I would have interest in getting a tour group together and visiting these groups in TN and Kentucky. They intrique me, but I'm pretty averse to using an outhouse.

I wouldn't let the outhouses scare you. I hear they are maintained fairly well... although as I understand it, they have a custom of having two outhouses (much as our houses have two bathrooms), and one is for men and one is for women. Rumour has it that the men sometimes aren't as diligent about keeping theirs clean as the women are.

Delano has a few communities and yes they just started another one. You can send them a letter (if you can find their address), otherwise just stop in. I guess they are pretty used to people randomly stopping in.

[gcdonner]

Sorry, somehow I missed this. I'm going to ask my daughter to see if she can find the exact quote but if my memory is correct is was something about being free with smiles to strange men. So a slightly different context, perhaps?

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

I don't think it's entirely ridiculous...except for "he's not a Christian, therefore don't smile". There are some creepy men out there and as Mennonites, we are naive about it. The lady folk in my family have had some scary experiences and they are "smilers". I've had discussions with my family about proper touch for instance, and where it's out of bounds. Scripture says to "be wise as serpents, harmless as doves".

Sorry to burst your bubbles here, but there are sufficient Anabaptist types who fit into the arena of being predators both of girls and boys. It's strange how I can see this "we and them" mentality playing out even in this thread. Mennonites are sinners... without Christ, just like a non-church going person is a sinner...without Christ. I will always be considered to being "from the world", even though I grew up in church as much as y'all did.
Having said that, I was a church going, Sunday School teaching sinner who was a lust-filled man until Jesus came and redeemed me. Your background or heritage does not insulate you from sin. There are plenty of "good" church going people headed for hell... Only Jesus saves, not the particular church group you are a part of (contrary to the Amish teachings)

[Judas Maccabeus]

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

Sounds like "Gothardism" to me.

Any others grow up with Gothard in the home/school/church? Maybe that is content for a new thread, but have been thinking lately how profoundly he influenced the conservative Mennonites, perhaps without them being totally aware of it.

I did not grow up with it, my family is not Christian. I quickly learned that if I hear his name RUN! This would have been mid 70s. This practice has served me well.

[Ken]

#1, didn’t expect to sign in today and see Ken agreeing with some of old school Nationwide Fellowship extremism.

I don't think I'm agreeing with old school Nationwide Fellowship extremism.

I just don't think that training or expecting girls and young women to smile at every strange guy out there is necessarily the best advice in this day and age. The world is full of creepy guys who may not respect boundaries.

[temporal1]

.. Many times predators are more aggressive if ignored, not the other way around.

We have tried to teach our children to follow their gut feeling- if someone feels off, up the boundaries, it doesn't matter who it is.
That would included folks from church, neighbors, family, etc, not only strangers.

There was only once in my whole life of rubbing shoulders with all stripes of people that I could smell/taste the evil oozing out of them. But making eye contact with them helped break the iciness that was freezing my spirit.

Wonder if they started giving karate classes at break times at that store???

Much emphasis is put on, “Just say no,” but there is more to it.
i agree, some aggressive ones, predators, etc., are insulted if ignored or told no, and/or some have a hunting instinct, they take it as a challenge to overcome. Saying no, ignoring, etc., are important .. but, the vulnerable “need to know” no may not be respected, more may be required. Also, there may be PRETENSE “no” is respected, followed by aggression/hunting. They can be wily.

Another aspect, in our increasingly multi-cultural world, different cultures respond to words and body language, including eye contact and smiling, in different ways. Neto describes some of this very well wrt native Americans and the Banawa in Brazil.

Decades ago, as a young woman from the Midwest in So Cal, i was horrified to learn that many men from other countries presumed all U.S. females were (whores) .. due to watching hollywood movies. (Needless to say, my deep disdain for hollywood began.)

Think of how many in the world only know the U.S. through hollywood.

When my younger sister came to visit, i warned her not to be fooled by men approaching, looking for directions, claiming to “not speek English,” etc. i told her, they aren’t lost, and probably know more English than you. Walk away. Quickly.

In the Midwest, we are taught to smile and be courteous and helpful. i think the South is like this, with variations.

A lot of life is about learning to foresee trouble, avoiding it, being cautious.
In most situations, courtesy works well. In some, avoidance is important.

i’m not sure about large chains attempting to standardize behaviors in all locations.
i would hope local managers have leeway to adjust rules for location and customs.