An observation from a seeker.

[Josh]

One of the oddest things about being a seeker is that ethnic Anabaptists who are on their way out of the plain world will feel comfortable opening up to you and expressing their worldliness, or desire for it, and/or comfort with it.

To give one of the more extreme examples, when I was an aspiring seeker, a youth boy once asked me if I could help him convince his dad his iPod Touch (basically a smart phone) had a filter on it when it actually didn't. He seemed to just assume I would be fine going along with this and sympathise with his desires.

Another example is assuming I'm going to enjoy listening to whatever worldly music, etc. they are into (or in the case of groups that claim not to listen to recordings at all, that I want to listen to their gospel music recordings.)

If the affiliation discourages photography or musical instruments, they will share photos with me and then discuss what a good instrument for them to learn is and how to record/mix/add effects to sound.

At the same time, they might hold on to some bits of "legalism" or stricter church practices. One of the silliest examples, to me, was someone who was comfortable being physically intimate with someone they were dating (and even spoke about coming out of "legalism" that they grew up to and "earning salvation via works") yet also still felt absolutely no divorce and remarriage is an important stance to take. The mind boggles at the kind of person who worries about D&R but is comfortable with fornication.

[Ernie]

Those who are transitioning out of traditional Anabaptist churches (whether in their generation or in the second or third) are rarely consistent in the way they go about it. It is almost always mind-boggling. I find it most mind-boggling/confusing whenever they view themselves as not-reactionary and appreciative of their traditional Anabaptist heritage.

[Sudsy]

Perhaps this has been shared somewhere before and I can't recall but what is a 'seeker' ? The Bible says that “no one seeks for God” (Romans 3:11) so it must be seeking something else. Is a 'seeker' a believer or an unbeliever ?

[temporal1]

As much as we long for it, faith is not guaranteed by church group, families, studies, human reasoning.

Faith is a gift of the Spirit. Pray to receive this gift, seek for the gift.

One of a number of scriptural references:

Luke 24:45
https://biblehub.com/luke/24-45.htm

Jesus Unveils the Scriptures
44Jesus said to them, “These are the words I spoke to you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.”

45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

46And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,…

Confusion is 100% normal when thinking is based on human reasoning.

However, even in deep confusion/denial, a person can be AWARE there is “something greater,” there is Truth, and be seeking it,
no matter how befuddled they come across. (i believe) this is the “indwelling spirit” humans are gifted with, which is pretty much why “i don’t believe in atheists.” i pray for the Holy Spirit to open hearts+minds.

Our fervent hope is that our children will experience deep abiding faith.
They don’t, always. Some must wander in the desert. It can be painful to witness.
We can guide, we can provide, we can’t do it for them. Pray for the Holy Spirit. For ourselves and others.

About Friends
Sometimes, Quakers say “there is that of God in each person.”
By recognizing every human being as God's good creation and bearing some aspect of God's image, ...

When reading about early Quakers, i was touched by this understanding. Esp when they migrated to the New World, they met new people with this belief, that they were God’s creation BEFORE knowing of scriptures. i believe this, too, and it certainly helps understanding when (let’s say, pagans) reflect Jesus’ teachings, BEFORE being introduced to Him. God created all. All are pagans without Jesus Christ.

It’s very very interesting. And beyond inadequate human reasoning.

[Ken]

Those who are transitioning out of traditional Anabaptist churches (whether in their generation or in the second or third) are rarely consistent in the way they go about it. It is almost always mind-boggling. I find it most mind-boggling/confusing whenever they view themselves as not-reactionary and appreciative of their traditional Anabaptist heritage.

I think it is perfectly understandable in context.

What you are largely talking about is young people who grew up in plain churches through no actual choice of their own. They were born into it. And over time they come to question and chafe at certain rules, restrictions, and/or beliefs that were not beliefs or rules that they came to on their own. But mostly a set of often arbitrary rules handed down to them no questions asked. It is the nature of young people to question things, and there are some plain churches that are not particularly good at giving reasonable answers.

And so they chafe at those particular rules or restrictions that they happen to run up against the most. It might look "confused" or inconsistent when viewed from the outside. But from the inside it is perfectly understandable for young people to chafe against rules that affect them directly but not so much against rules or beliefs that do no. For girls or young women it might be one set of rules they chafe against, perhaps related to dress, women's roles, speaking your mind, questioning things, etc. And for boys or young men it might be an entirely different set of rules related to technology, transportation, professions, etc.

[Sudsy]

Perhaps some people coming out of the plain world have grown up under rules and expectations and have never been born again. So, as they question and drop some of their religious requirements to be part of that group, they will go through a period of holding to some of these and letting go of others and in this period will believe and do things that appear or are contradictions. If they are not born again, they might find a more liberal church that they can relate to more or they will abandon a religious pursuit.

I have some buddies I grew up with in a very conservative church that preached and often gave opportunity to be born again and these buddies did not experience this new birth and when they were old enough they escaped the church scene and never returned.

There is a big difference in being born again and growing spiritually and sometimes doing and believing things that appear or are contradictions, to a person who has only been religious, not born again, and does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. When the Holy Spirit comes to live within us, our walk with God is not a 'have to' but rather a 'want to'. If one does not have a 'want to' please and obey God and this is not a personal relationship, then that does match up with what scripture describes as being born again.

I think there is a problem today with telling people they are born again when they repeat a 'sinner's prayer' and they don't experience any new relationship with God and there also is a problem today with people who try to stay in a religious group keeping their religious requirements and they know in their hearts that their walk with God is more of a 'have to' than a 'want to'. When the 'want to' is not there, that is a good sign that they have not experienced the new birth and the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within.

[Josh]

Perhaps this has been shared somewhere before and I can't recall but what is a 'seeker' ? The Bible says that “no one seeks for God” (Romans 3:11) so it must be seeking something else. Is a 'seeker' a believer or an unbeliever ?

Someone who is already a believer, but is seeking to find a conservative/plain Anabaptist congregation to be a part of.

Sudsy, temporal1, and Ken, with respect, none of you are seekers or seem to even have much experience at all with plain churches. I’m not sure why you (collectively) feel the need to give so much input about what experiences are like for seekers.

[Josh]

I think there is a problem today with telling people they are born again when they repeat a 'sinner's prayer' and they don't experience any new relationship with God and there also is a problem today with people who try to stay in a religious group keeping their religious requirements and they know in their hearts that their walk with God is more of a 'have to' than a 'want to'. When the 'want to' is not there, that is a good sign that they have not experienced the new birth and the Holy Spirit is not dwelling within.

Conservative Anabaptist churches place a strong emphasis on being genuinely born again.

[Josh]

Those who are transitioning out of traditional Anabaptist churches (whether in their generation or in the second or third) are rarely consistent in the way they go about it. It is almost always mind-boggling. I find it most mind-boggling/confusing whenever they view themselves as not-reactionary and appreciative of their traditional Anabaptist heritage.

I think it is perfectly understandable in context.

What you are largely talking about is young people who grew up in plain churches through no actual choice of their own. They were born into it. And over time they come to question and chafe at certain rules, restrictions, and/or beliefs that were not beliefs or rules that they came to on their own. But mostly a set of often arbitrary rules handed down to them no questions asked. It is the nature of young people to question things, and there are some plain churches that are not particularly good at giving reasonable answers.

And so they chafe at those particular rules or restrictions that they happen to run up against the most. It might look "confused" or inconsistent when viewed from the outside. But from the inside it is perfectly understandable for young people to chafe against rules that affect them directly but not so much against rules or beliefs that do no. For girls or young women it might be one set of rules they chafe against, perhaps related to dress, women's roles, speaking your mind, questioning things, etc. And for boys or young men it might be an entirely different set of rules related to technology, transportation, professions, etc.

Ken,

Most of the people I have experienced this with are middle aged, often with children already into adulthood. One example I can think of was a youth person.

Particularly baffling is such a person often identifies as politically conservative. One of the biggest “tells” I am dealing with such a person is they want to talk about the latest culture war issue or latest popular Republican candidate.

[temporal1]

Most of the people I have experienced this with are middle aged, often with children already into adulthood. One example I can think of was a youth person.

Particularly baffling is such a person often identifies as politically conservative. One of the biggest “tells” I am dealing with such a person is they want to talk about the latest culture war issue or latest popular Republican candidate.

my perception is plenty are politically liberal. is it just that they have an established place to go? or?

Just noticed:

.. with respect, none of you are seekers or seem to even have much experience at all with plain churches.
I’m not sure why you (collectively) feel the need to give so much input about what experiences are like for seekers.

sorry. i didn’t intend to intrude.
my view is that all outside Jesus are in the same boat. in need of the gift of the Spirit.