Cons. Anabaptist covering practices

[Heirbyadoption]

But you don't think of this as a salvation issue, correct?

Correct. I don't believe salvation is based on things such as this.

I suggest you start a new thread and list the sort of things that you believe are salvation issues. That could make for an interesting discussion.

Sudsy, I'd be interested in hearing from you in the aforementioned potential thread as well. In particular, I'd be interested to hear (based on the above couple posts) whether you think a minister, congregation, church fellowship, etc should:

A. Avoid ever teaching that the Bible DOES say Christians should do or avoid certain things if they are not on the "salvation issues" list, or
B. Go ahead and teach them things the Scriptures DO teach should Christian should do or avoid, so long as such things aren't actually required or taught as being "salvation issues?"

[Verity]

In Eastern anything other than a cap style covering is frowned on. This includes while sleeping and after washing the hair (ladies are to kinda perch their covering on top and hope it stays...). Maybe 15 years ago there was a strong movement to make sure that ladies were never wearing flowing veils at home (after hair washing or to sleep) because it "could undermine consistent practice". Some did anyway, especially those who had always worn a veil to sleep in, but they kept it quite.

For some reason I have a problem with other men (those in leadership) telling women what to wear on their heads and otherwise, in the privacy of a bedroom. (I heard that PJ's on women is also forbidden) The bedroom is to be shared with a wife's husband and NO ONE else! What happens in the bedroom and what the woman (or man) wears is no business of another man, even church leaders, in my opinion. Many years ago I worked with an Eastern young lady, who was also a bride to be. The outfits she purchased at Victoria's Secret for her wedding night, certainly would not have meshed well with a covering.

I am on our church Ministry team, and I can confirm, as far as I know, it is none of our business, and never has been.

I would wonder what the proposed enforcement mechanism for this would be. I cannot fathom this. I know our statement of faith and practice inside and out, most NMB’s do, and I have never seen anything like this. Is this really in EPMC’s, or is it just some bishop making things up as they go along.

I do not know what Eastern’s statement of faith and practice really is. I would be quite interested in knowing what it actually is. I teach history and have every Lancaster conference version that has ever been published in English, I wonder exactly what the progression was from the pre split version to the current one. The details of the Mid Atlantic separation are particularly interesting.

Would you be open to a history class here on MN? Sounds intriguing.

It would not be hard to get you a copy of Eastern's standards, but that wouldn't enlighten you much. It would look like many others. Eastern relies on "Bishop statements" which are not available to the laity. I believe it is a power play. Many members have asked for copies of particularly confusing statements only to be told they are not available because they could be misconstrued.

A few true examples- a long time school teacher, in good standing of the church had her loyalty questioned because of a statement made in the classroom. One of the questions she was asked was concerning her night time covering. It was still a veil, as she had always used aside from time at Bible School where a cap style night time covering is required (the matrons will replace veils that they see). She was told that she must change or stop teaching.

A different member was called into question for using a cranial therapist for her child after raising several concerns about her immoral husband. She was told she must cease using the therapist or loose her membership [this Bishop Statement, which I heard personally years ago, has apparently been altered along the way without anything public since ministry are now using cranial therapist and recommending them to the laity...]

Another member who had made statements that were taken as being disloyal was drilled and it was discovered that they use homeopathics at times. There was a distant Bishop Statement on that so it became a test of membership. Since others knew they used homeopathics, it also required a public confession. [This one actually occurred multiple times]

So how is it enforced? Some of these horror stories get out and ladies make sure they are doing what is expected of them. It works.

These things happen all too often, while known gross sin requires vague non-shaming confessions and little if any restriction.

[Sudsy]

For sure. Some clearly think of it as primarily symbolic or emblematic, without much thought as to whether it actually covers anything, and others appear to see it as an actual covering (which is also symbolic).

Some reasons I have heard -

1) a woman must show her subjection to God's arrangement of headship by covering her head while praying or prophesying.
2) that a covering is a sign of a woman's married status.
3) 'because of the angels' - meaning ?
4) she is the reflection of man. 1 Cor 11:7 meaning ?
5) a way of being modest
6) all or some of the above

In our culture the wedding band I think has been and still is the sign of marriage status. The continued wearing beyond prophesying and praying has always puzzled me. Especially in churches that still believe women should keep quiet in their churches and if one decides to pray during non-church hours, one can always put on a headcovering for the prayer time just as men can remove their hats. So I guess the continuous wearing has more to do with telling others one is being subjective to their husband 24/7 ?

Anyway, as I mentioned before, our local MB church has head coverings worn during church services but these are all on young men in the form of ball hats all through the service.

Wife: we wear a headcovering at all times because we are to pray and give thanks at all times (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18). If women are to cover their heads when praying, it therefore follows that we are to cover full time. We do not care what style it is, by the way.
YMMV.

Yes I have heard that reason before but I would think then that men should also follow the instructions for men and never wear a headcovering of any kind so they can pray and worship at any moment of the day. Scripture says - 'A man should not wear anything on his head when worshiping, for man is made in God’s image and reflects God’s glory. And woman reflects man’s glory.' 1 Cor 11:7 NLT. So, I wonder how does the Catholic church understand this text as various clergy members who are men often worship with some sort of headcovering ?

I often see men with hats on take their hat off when they pray and give thanks. Why can't women do the same and have an easy on easy off headcovering ? Seems men don't need to live by headcovering rules but women must. I'm thinking there must be some explanation for this.

Personally, when I was in the MB church and the young men did not remove their hats in worship and in prayer, it struct me as dis-honoring the Lord. Even when the national anthem is sung at all kinds of events it is expected of all men to remove their hats as a sign of respect.

[Josh]

I often see men with hats on take their hat off when they pray and give thanks. Why can't women do the same and have an easy on easy off headcovering ? Seems men don't need to live by headcovering rules but women must. I'm thinking there must be some explanation for this.

Could you point me to a church where women practice this?

[Ken]

I often see men with hats on take their hat off when they pray and give thanks. Why can't women do the same and have an easy on easy off headcovering ? Seems men don't need to live by headcovering rules but women must. I'm thinking there must be some explanation for this.

Many other denominations actually do this. From Latin American Catholic women who carry mantillas in their purses to bring out in church



And Black women in the US who customarily wear hats in church but not in everyday life



Both of which actually provide more head covering than the traditional Mennonite style.

[Josh]

I'm aware of individuals who do. I was asking Sudsy if he could identify specific groups that mandate such a practice as part of biblical obedience.

[Ken]

I'm aware of individuals who do. I was asking Sudsy if he could identify specific groups that mandate such a practice as part of biblical obedience.

I was responding to Sudsy not you. But that wasn't what you asked him anyway. You didn't ask him to identify groups that MANDATE such a practice as part of Biblical obedience. What you asked him was:

"Could you point me to a church where women practice this?"

[Josh]

I'm aware of individuals who do. I was asking Sudsy if he could identify specific groups that mandate such a practice as part of biblical obedience.

I was responding to Sudsy not you. But that wasn't what you asked him anyway. You didn't ask him to identify groups that MANDATE such a practice as part of Biblical obedience. What you asked him was:

"Could you point me to a church where women practice this?"

Either mandate/teach it or else it is universally practiced. Generally speaking most of the practices you posted pictures of are obsolete and do not happen consistently even in a single congregation.

[Sudsy]

Correct. I don't believe salvation is based on things such as this.

I suggest you start a new thread and list the sort of things that you believe are salvation issues. That could make for an interesting discussion.

Sudsy, I'd be interested in hearing from you in the aforementioned potential thread as well. In particular, I'd be interested to hear (based on the above couple posts) whether you think a minister, congregation, church fellowship, etc should:

A. Avoid ever teaching that the Bible DOES say Christians should do or avoid certain things if they are not on the "salvation issues" list, or
B. Go ahead and teach them things the Scriptures DO teach should Christian should do or avoid, so long as such things aren't actually required or taught as being "salvation issues?"

I am probably not of the same belief as others here regarding "salvation issues". I do believe there are consequences for not living as the Holy Spirit guides a believer to live but any consequence does not include the forfeit one's salvation. In that sense I lean toward a OSAS doctrine. Things that the scriptures call sin should be taken seriously as sin brings problems to a believer but not a problem of losing their salvation. This is not a belief in the Pentecostals I grew up in nor is it with some, perhaps most, Anabaptists, I'm not sure.

Here is a video with scriptures to back a OSAS belief that I have -

This video at the 31:15 minute mark goes as far as saying if we can lose our salvation then this is not believing the Gospel. Pretty strong statement but something to think about regarding salvation.

[Sudsy]

I often see men with hats on take their hat off when they pray and give thanks. Why can't women do the same and have an easy on easy off headcovering ? Seems men don't need to live by headcovering rules but women must. I'm thinking there must be some explanation for this.

Could you point me to a church where women practice this?

I was thinking of what men and women do outside the church. Inside the local church when they pray and worship it would seem to me that men keeping hats off and women keeping their coverings on would be most practical. But outside the church it would seem to me that women leaving their covering on all the time in case they pray would also require men to keep their hats off in case they pray.