Should CA ministers, deacons, and bishops be paid?

[Josh]

This is a thread to discuss whether bishops/elders, ministers/preachers, and deacons should be paid who are in CA/plain churches. The definition of a CA/plain church is Cory Anderson’s definition, ranging from Gospel Haven type churches to some churches in CMC/RNoC to Amish.

Typically, CA churches don’t pay ordained men. Some churches start to do so when they transition to becoming not plain/conservative. However, this thread is to discuss paying ordained men specifically in the context of a plain church that plans to remain plain.

[Soloist]

If their finances are tight, and there is less time available to minister to their flock, I think they should be paid.
The stereotype that only rich are ordained might carry more weight then it should.

The visiting speaker who is financially stable shouldn’t be paid.

[steve-in-kville]

I would say not salaried, but maybe we could so a bit better on reimbursement of travel and expenses. Our church lifts a "love" offering every December and is split among our ministers. Guaranteed it doesn't come anywhere close to paying a living wage, but it helps.

[GaryK]

I think first you’ll have to find and showing CA’s Scripture that supports the idea of paid pastors. I’ve only seen the opposite emphasis against such. So yeah let’s follow the biblical model but it seems we may be miles apart?

I can think of a few scriptures that suggest supporting those who labor in Kingdom work, starting with something Jesus said.

Matthew 10:9-10 NKJV 9 "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 "nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Galatians 6:6 NKJV 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 NKJV 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

All of these passages seem to suggest that the idea of supporting those who labor in Kingdom work should come from those who benefit from that work rather than the one doing the work expecting or asking for the support.

I would view all those scripture to encourage brotherhood support - not paid pastors. The two to me are really very different.

Are you saying brotherhood support of church leaders or brotherhood support of anyone in need? If you are saying brotherhood support of church leaders, that's what I'm suggesting as well. If you are saying brotherhood support of anyone in need, that seems to miss the context of these passages.

[Josh]

Are you saying brotherhood support of church leaders or brotherhood support of anyone in need? If you are saying brotherhood support of church leaders, that's what I'm suggesting as well. If you are saying brotherhood support of anyone in need, that seems to miss the context of these passages.

I would say the brotherhood should support anyone who labours in the gospel ministry. So I have duties to arrange distribution in tracts, and the brotherhood pays for the tracts. If I needed help to pay for expenses in driving them around, I could ask for that. (Recently a family that is on the less wealthy side of things volunteered to drive a car full of boxes of tracts to Chicago. I believe their mileage expenses were reimbursed.) If I wanted to do tract work full time, I could ask, and would probably be supported - albeit perhaps only for a time span of 2 or 3 years. We have multiple openings for full time tract workers.

Matthew 10:9-10 NKJV 9 "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 "nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
Galatians 6:6 NKJV 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 NKJV 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
1 Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

I see Matt 10 is saying a person travelling should be provided meals and hospitality.

Gal 6 is not clear at all it means being paid.

1 Ti 5 I have heard actually explained in IFB Baptist circles as that whatever salary the congregation votes on, it should be doubled and paid to the pastor.

Overall, I see strong support for helping pay for missionaries who share the gospel with unbelievers. But I don’t see that preaching on Sundays to the converted is supposed to be a paid occupation.

[GaryK]

How do we change to this way of thinking as conservative Anabaptists?

Do some interviews with churches who hire pastors one day per week or support them otherwise so that they don't have to work a job 40 hours per week. Then write a book about it or do a series of interviews on Anabaptist Perspectives. And produce an article for Anabaptist Viewpoint.

In the early church, being ordained as an elder meant leaving your job and becoming fully involved in the church. Elders were expected to live a life of sacrifice and life of poverty, basically. If we did that today, it would take care of many unhealthy motives for wanting to be a paid preacher.

I would suggest seeking the Lord, scripture and your brotherhood first.

If you and Gary are struggling in anyway I hope that it is all laid out to your closest brethren.

Being a leader and wanting to change the way of thinking of other so you can get paid sounds really off…

You both seek to reach out so much it is inspiring but if you aren’t getting the support you need maybe it is God telling you to stop looking out so much and support those closest to you and build up within so you can support one another locally to the point of it having no other way but spilling out to others.

If you are reading from what I'm posting that I am wanting to get paid as a pastor, I want to assure you that I don't. We are a very small church and I would never expect any financial support from the church. The Lord has adequately supplied for our financial means through our business.

This conversation started when mike said this:

I think it's a really sad state of affairs when they create this kind of position for themselves. I have come to think that the reason for the loneliness and lack of friends is due, among other problems, to being so busy with official tasks that they don't have time to develop normal social relationships. This loneliness and lack of friends can't be helpful when doing pastoral work.

I'm trying to understand why this happens in conservative Anabaptist settings and looking at NT teachings on how to possibly remedy this problem.

[Josh]

I have a hard time that a paid pastor is easier to socialise with. If anything, it makes relating to them a lot harder.

When coupled with a desire for “qualifications” and higher education, this also means people seeking to be ministers will start going to seminaries or similar colleges. The history of such things is not good, particularly in Mennonite circles.

[GaryK]

Are you saying brotherhood support of church leaders or brotherhood support of anyone in need? If you are saying brotherhood support of church leaders, that's what I'm suggesting as well. If you are saying brotherhood support of anyone in need, that seems to miss the context of these passages.

I would say the brotherhood should support anyone who labours in the gospel ministry. So I have duties to arrange distribution in tracts, and the brotherhood pays for the tracts. If I needed help to pay for expenses in driving them around, I could ask for that. (Recently a family that is on the less wealthy side of things volunteered to drive a car full of boxes of tracts to Chicago. I believe their mileage expenses were reimbursed.) If I wanted to do tract work full time, I could ask, and would probably be supported - albeit perhaps only for a time span of 2 or 3 years. We have multiple openings for full time tract workers.

Matthew 10:9-10 NKJV 9 "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 "nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
Galatians 6:6 NKJV 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches.
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 NKJV 13 Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14 Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
1 Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

I see Matt 10 is saying a person travelling should be provided meals and hospitality.

Gal 6 is not clear at all it means being paid.

1 Ti 5 I have heard actually explained in IFB Baptist circles as that whatever salary the congregation votes on, it should be doubled and paid to the pastor.

Overall, I see strong support for helping pay for missionaries who share the gospel with unbelievers. But I don’t see that preaching on Sundays to the converted is supposed to be a paid occupation.

Those were Jesus' 12 disciples He spoke those words to. We know they were chosen by Jesus to lead the coming Kingdom.

Pretty much everyone agrees that sharing in all good things with him who teaches is talking about supporting the teacher.

The 1 Cor passage is the most specific and talks about a commandment of Jesus. "those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel"

The 1 Tim passage is very specific as well and Paul references scripture to make the point "The laborer is worthy of his wages."

What I'm suggesting is that if the need arises, and I think in some of our larger settings, the need is there, the church should willingly support their pastors financially so that they can spend all the time they need in church work without having to worry about financially supporting their families. I believe these passages support that.

[Josh]

If that’s enough support for paid pastors, then Acts 2 and 4 are enough support that believers should live in a community of goods (a position I uphold). That would also solve the paid pastors question, as they would simply be part of the common purse.

An even better question is why ordained men should be paid but the common member is expected to work and live independently. And then the question is what standard of living for paid pastors? Should they be paid what the poorest church member is making a this job, or what the wealthiest member enjoys?

[GaryK]

An even better question is why ordained men should be paid but the common member is expected to work and live independently.

I think Paul answers that question for you.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 NKJV 17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer is worthy of his wages."