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You'd have to first convince me that the Catholic Church, televangelists, and the evangelical megachurches in America are somehow following the NT more closely than the plain Anabaptist world is. I would have a hard time being so convinced.

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:15 pm You'd have to first convince me that the Catholic Church, televangelists, and the evangelical megachurches in America are somehow following the NT more closely than the plain Anabaptist world is. I would have a hard time being so convinced.

I'm not sure what your point is. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I've advocated for or said.

GaryK wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:32 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:15 pm You'd have to first convince me that the Catholic Church, televangelists, and the evangelical megachurches in America are somehow following the NT more closely than the plain Anabaptist world is. I would have a hard time being so convinced.

I'm not sure what your point is. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I've advocated for or said.

They are the best example of a paid ministry model, where ministers and other ordained men are paid (in varying amounts; not all are paid and there is a huge diversity of models for how they are paid and for what).

But what is unique amongst CAs is that the ministry is generally not paid at all, or else small token amounts.

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 3:15 pm

GaryK wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:32 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:15 pm You'd have to first convince me that the Catholic Church, televangelists, and the evangelical megachurches in America are somehow following the NT more closely than the plain Anabaptist world is. I would have a hard time being so convinced.

I'm not sure what your point is. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I've advocated for or said.

They are the best example of a paid ministry model, where ministers and other ordained men are paid (in varying amounts; not all are paid and there is a huge diversity of models for how they are paid and for what).

I'm not sure they are the *best* example, but they might be the most readily available one.

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:34 am

GaryK wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:25 am

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:19 am
I think by definition to be "Conservative" is to be very slow to make a change from historic patterns. In that sense, a transition to a salaried ministry is going to be a huge hurdle for a conservative people.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not advocating for salaried ministry.

Right. I read your post, then some others, then decided to come back and reply to yours and didn't read it again.
What I'm trying to say though is that I think if you do much "changing the thinking" of CA's then by definition they aren't exactly Conservative any more because they're not conserving the old ways, even if they are now more NT Biblical. Does that make any sense?

So, if any of us went back far enough, we would all be "Conservative Pagans".

It's been some years Since I was a part of a Church ,that used the Voting thing ,to find themselves a "preacher'.so to speak....The results were rather poor, in hindsight , Some really likable ,but poorly equipped ,were put in .....That particular fairly strict mennonite Church ,has since went down to almost nothing ,in several ways ....
I would much rather hear someone Preach who has a real call to do that, and is also apt to teach and study, and maybe gifted in that line, ahead of time...instead of the popularity thing that too often takes place...

On the Other side of the equation,for a bit of Early Beachy Amish history here , has to do with the Late well known leader and writer Jacob Hershberger ,from Virginia Beach ,Va , who was so well known and respected in the late 1950's ,untill his untimely death in the mid 1960's .....
It was noted that when first ordained ,he was extremely shy ,hardly ever spoke in public, even acted rather "odd", according to some that knew him , It was revealed later, after he died ,that when he was first ordained he got the very min. of votes ,which was 2 , while the benchful of other men all had many more votes then that ....and they abided by that setting that Amish of that time always used , that 2 votes and you're on the bench..The Beachy Amish of that time were almost "Amish with cars",all the way .........and well, lets just say he did very well indeed...

mike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2024 7:28 am

Josh wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2024 6:47 pm According to my understanding, conservative Mennonites (but not Amish nor Amish-Mennonites) conduct ordinations by lot. One source told me 25% or so of ordinations won’t be by lot, but whomever oversees the ordination (typically bishops) will simply choose the nominee(s) they like best. The other 75% or so of the time, multiple nominees will be in the lot, and one will be picked at random.

The overseers may nominate a nominee with just 1 vote. The congregation might have 25 votes, but the overseers have the final say, and may decide to pull out the more popular candidate and keep the candidate they like. A term for this is “the Mennonite church is not a democracy”. An ordination may be for multiple ministers. The overseers will decide how many to ordain. So there may be 4 nominees, and 2 would be ordained if the overseers see fit.

In our conference, I believe it takes at least 3 or maybe 5 to qualify. Several of our ordinations have had no lot, because only one person qualified. So that person was ordained. Also, in another recent ordination in the conference, a person was either disqualified or asked to be disqualified because he didn't support certain positions of the church. This was announced not only in that congregation but in others in the conference. I think that's as it should be. I think that if the congregation's voice is going to be disregarded in that way, it is good for the church at large to know that, and the reason why. I don't know if that's common practice, or whether sometimes the church isn't told.

In our congregation, nominations are given by members - the lot is determined by "natural break" for example - if one name is given 60 times, and 2 names 3 times and two times, we would move forward without a lot. Candidates are then interviewed to determine sense of call, as well as to determine theological and practical positions. Once that is completed, our advisory team would recommend the candidates to move forward. Candidates would be licensed with view to ordain for a two year term to allow them time for training and preparation. A formal ordination service follows at the two year mark based on a recommendation by our congregations leadership team and approval by congregational ballot to validate the sense of call. (very abbreviated summary)

thebluffs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 10:27 am In our congregation, nominations are given by members - the lot is determined by "natural break" for example - if one name is given 60 times, and 2 names 3 times and two times, we would move forward without a lot. Candidates are then interviewed to determine sense of call, as well as to determine theological and practical positions. Once that is completed, our advisory team would recommend the candidates to move forward. Candidates would be licensed with view to ordain for a two year term to allow them time for training and preparation. A formal ordination service follows at the two year mark based on a recommendation by our congregations leadership team and approval by congregational ballot to validate the sense of call. (very abbreviated summary)

I like this. What sort of church is this?

thebluffs’ experience is how I thought CAs conducted ordinations (and how the last one I personally witnessed was conducted).

Ernie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 14, 2024 10:38 am

thebluffs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 10:27 am In our congregation, nominations are given by members - the lot is determined by "natural break" for example - if one name is given 60 times, and 2 names 3 times and two times, we would move forward without a lot. Candidates are then interviewed to determine sense of call, as well as to determine theological and practical positions. Once that is completed, our advisory team would recommend the candidates to move forward. Candidates would be licensed with view to ordain for a two year term to allow them time for training and preparation. A formal ordination service follows at the two year mark based on a recommendation by our congregations leadership team and approval by congregational ballot to validate the sense of call. (very abbreviated summary)

I like this. What sort of church is this?

Ernie -it is an unaffiliated Mennonite church in Ontario - Faith Mennonite.