Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:43 pm If you change the thinking of conservative Anabaptists, they won’t be conservative anymore. For an obvious example of this, in the CMC/RNoC, congregations have transitioned to paying their pastors. It is a useful case study to learn the changes this brings about.

The term “hireling” comes from scripture:

“But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.”

The process of hiring and and paying a pastor results in, well, a hireling. A church puts together a pastoral search committee. Candidates are selected and invited to come. They usually preach a sermon. Then the congregation or board votes on whom they like best, and a job offer with a salary is made.
The key words are "he that is a hireling". I do not think that the text there is referring to "anyone who is paid". We are also to be 'stewards', and servants', and these can also be paid positions. As I said, I have never sat under a pastor who did not give himself whole-heartedly to the people. The more common fault I heard expressed was pastors (and missionaries as well) who gave so much of themselves that they lost their own children. But that can happen to a lay-minister as well.

I am not acquainted with the candidating procedures in other conferences or congregations, but in the MB setting, there is never any comparison being made between two or more potential pastors. One man is asked to come, then only if the congregation does not extend a call to him is another man contacted. Never any comparison. (Also, the church board, or a separately selected "pulpit committee" has already gone to visit the congregation where the possible candidate is currently pastor, and have heard him preach, and have generally also visited with him concerning his vision, etc., all before a request to come visit is extended.)

One solution I would, and have suggested, is to free the pastor of all responsibilities pertaining to the physical plant - the church building and decisions about the church school if there is one, the parking lot and the church sign, etc. They were chosen to do spiritual ministry, not be weighted down with trivial questions about the church house, rather to be concerned with the building that is the House of God, the CHURCH. And there IS actually some Scripture about that - the apostles were unwilling to take time away from the spiritual ministry laid on them by Jesus, to serve tables. That too is a noble and necessary task, and one that is also Christian service. Look at the requirements they listed for those 7 men.
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NedFlanders
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by NedFlanders »

Ernie wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:49 pm
GaryK wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:34 pm How do we change to this way of thinking as conservative Anabaptists?
Do some interviews with churches who hire pastors one day per week or support them otherwise so that they don't have to work a job 40 hours per week. Then write a book about it or do a series of interviews on Anabaptist Perspectives. And produce an article for Anabaptist Viewpoint.

In the early church, being ordained as an elder meant leaving your job and becoming fully involved in the church. Elders were expected to live a life of sacrifice and life of poverty, basically. If we did that today, it would take care of many unhealthy motives for wanting to be a paid preacher.
I would suggest seeking the Lord, scripture and your brotherhood first.

If you and Gary are struggling in anyway I hope that it is all laid out to your closest brethren.

Being a leader and wanting to change the way of thinking of other so you can get paid sounds really off…

You both seek to reach out so much it is inspiring but if you aren’t getting the support you need maybe it is God telling you to stop looking out so much and support those closest to you and build up within so you can support one another locally to the point of it having no other way but spilling out to others.
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Psalms 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
NedFlanders
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by NedFlanders »

It is threads like this that help me to be so grateful that God had my family be part of a much more conservative church than being around a perspective that misses brotherhood aid and things like double honour and turning them into positions of salary and creating a perception that leads to hirelings. The moderate world is very distasteful to seekers for things like this.
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Psalms 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
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Josh
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Josh »

All of these passages seem to suggest that the idea of supporting those who labor in Kingdom work should come from those who benefit from that work rather than the one doing the work expecting or asking for the support.
Shouldn’t every single member be labouring in Kingdom work? Specifically this is definitely not something only ordained people should be doing.

Most those who benefit from kingdom work are people I can’t imagine ever choosing to pay for it - at least not anytime soon. I am thinking of visitors, seekers, or needy people we help outside our church walls. Or the many people tracts are distributed to.
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NedFlanders
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by NedFlanders »

Josh wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:35 pm
All of these passages seem to suggest that the idea of supporting those who labor in Kingdom work should come from those who benefit from that work rather than the one doing the work expecting or asking for the support.
Shouldn’t every single member be labouring in Kingdom work? Specifically this is definitely not something only ordained people should be doing.

Most those who benefit from kingdom work are people I can’t imagine ever choosing to pay for it - at least not anytime soon. I am thinking of visitors, seekers, or needy people we help outside our church walls. Or the many people tracts are distributed to.
Now that is a Conservative Anabaptist Perspective and more importantly a New Testament perspective.

Rather than elevating the ministry as the one doing the work as if the rest of the church isn’t labouring or don’t have the Spirit of God working in them…
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Josh
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by Josh »

Note, I made a thread for discussing paid ministry. Perhaps it would be best if this discussion moved over there.
Last edited by ohio jones on Wed Jan 10, 2024 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: add link
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by ken_sylvania »

GaryK wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:09 pm
Josh wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:43 pm If you change the thinking of conservative Anabaptists, they won’t be conservative anymore. For an obvious example of this, in the CMC/RNoC, congregations have transitioned to paying their pastors. It is a useful case study to learn the changes this brings about.

The term “hireling” comes from scripture:

“But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.”

The process of hiring and and paying a pastor results in, well, a hireling. A church puts together a pastoral search committee. Candidates are selected and invited to come. They usually preach a sermon. Then the congregation or board votes on whom they like best, and a job offer with a salary is made.
I don't subscribe to the way of thinking that says If you change the thinking of cA's they won't be conservative anymore. I can think of many ways that cA's could change their thinking and be more in line with NT Kingdom values.

Again, we're not talking about the way Evangelicals or more liberal Mennonites do it. Conservative Anabaptists don't do it that way. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. I'm not proposing an Evangelical model.
I think by definition to be "Conservative" is to be very slow to make a change from historic patterns. In that sense, a transition to a salaried ministry is going to be a huge hurdle for a conservative people.
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GaryK
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by GaryK »

ken_sylvania wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:19 am
GaryK wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:09 pm
Josh wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 9:43 pm If you change the thinking of conservative Anabaptists, they won’t be conservative anymore. For an obvious example of this, in the CMC/RNoC, congregations have transitioned to paying their pastors. It is a useful case study to learn the changes this brings about.

The term “hireling” comes from scripture:

“But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.”

The process of hiring and and paying a pastor results in, well, a hireling. A church puts together a pastoral search committee. Candidates are selected and invited to come. They usually preach a sermon. Then the congregation or board votes on whom they like best, and a job offer with a salary is made.
I don't subscribe to the way of thinking that says If you change the thinking of cA's they won't be conservative anymore. I can think of many ways that cA's could change their thinking and be more in line with NT Kingdom values.

Again, we're not talking about the way Evangelicals or more liberal Mennonites do it. Conservative Anabaptists don't do it that way. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. I'm not proposing an Evangelical model.
I think by definition to be "Conservative" is to be very slow to make a change from historic patterns. In that sense, a transition to a salaried ministry is going to be a huge hurdle for a conservative people.
As I said in the other thread, I'm not advocating for salaried ministry.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by ken_sylvania »

GaryK wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:25 am
ken_sylvania wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:19 am
GaryK wrote: Tue Jan 09, 2024 10:09 pm
I don't subscribe to the way of thinking that says If you change the thinking of cA's they won't be conservative anymore. I can think of many ways that cA's could change their thinking and be more in line with NT Kingdom values.

Again, we're not talking about the way Evangelicals or more liberal Mennonites do it. Conservative Anabaptists don't do it that way. I'm not sure why you keep bringing that up. I'm not proposing an Evangelical model.
I think by definition to be "Conservative" is to be very slow to make a change from historic patterns. In that sense, a transition to a salaried ministry is going to be a huge hurdle for a conservative people.
As I said in the other thread, I'm not advocating for salaried ministry.
Right. I read your post, then some others, then decided to come back and reply to yours and didn't read it again. :)
What I'm trying to say though is that I think if you do much "changing the thinking" of CA's then by definition they aren't exactly Conservative any more because they're not conserving the old ways, even if they are now more NT Biblical. Does that make any sense?
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GaryK
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Re: Cons. Anabaptist ordination practices

Post by GaryK »

ken_sylvania wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:34 am
GaryK wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:25 am
ken_sylvania wrote: Wed Jan 10, 2024 11:19 am
I think by definition to be "Conservative" is to be very slow to make a change from historic patterns. In that sense, a transition to a salaried ministry is going to be a huge hurdle for a conservative people.
As I said in the other thread, I'm not advocating for salaried ministry.
Right. I read your post, then some others, then decided to come back and reply to yours and didn't read it again. :)
What I'm trying to say though is that I think if you do much "changing the thinking" of CA's then by definition they aren't exactly Conservative any more because they're not conserving the old ways, even if they are now more NT Biblical. Does that make any sense?
Sure, in that sense it does. But in another sense I think being more biblical might be more conservative because it's going back even further, in that it's conserving NT biblical ideas. :)
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