The Anabaptist perception towards a "money mindset"!

[Josh]

No one gets rich having many children either.

It can get interesting when tax season rolls around. My coworkers assume I get a bajillion dollars back due to having a sizable family.

It doesn't work that way.

Well, you get $2,000 per kid off the top (until they're grown up), plus an extra $7000 if your income is in the $30k-$40k range.

[mike]

If a church decides to embrace one aspect of the world (having a small family), then they will find they have to embrace other parts of the world (worldly estate planning, Medicaid estate planning, and really expensive nursing homes).

Personally, I think as Christians we are called to be pilgrims and strangers, and we should consider if we should really have a lifestyle reliant on a high upper-middle-class income. I think we are called to live like Acts 2 and 4 - each earns what he can, and then distributes to the community as there are needs.

I basically agree with that. I also think that one way a person can provide for his old age is to help his children as much as he can, so that his children have the ability to care for him in his old age. Years ago, my grandfather decided he wanted to give away his money long before his death, so several times he made disbursements to his children in the largest amounts that could be given tax-free, and in return, each of his children paid back $100 per month to help cover his living expenses. This wasn't enough to ever pay back what he had given them, but it was a way to make sure he had a little income. He didn't need much because he lived with my uncle until he passed away at 92 years of age. In his last days his children took turns giving him 24 hour care. And when he passed away, there was very little in the way of possessions or money that needed to be distributed. I think it was a very good way to provide for himself in old age. He actually did the opposite of saving up money for it.

[RZehr]

Family’s need to take care of their own. It’s what the Bible says. If they can’t, then it falls to the church to take care of them. In that order. Government isn’t mentioned as having a role to play.

[Neto]

It doesn't take a pile of money for elder care if you take care of them in their or your home. That's what happened for each of my four grandparents. There were 7-9 siblings in each of the families and the work was shared to some extent.

But most people don't have anywhere near that number of kids anymore, and the ones they do wouldn't want that responsibility, so they have to do something to provide for their own care. It makes sense to save up money for it if you can.

But, as Josh suggests, you can save nothing, and let just Medicaid take care of you when you're elderly. If you have nothing, they can't take it from you, and they don't throw elders out on the streets. You'll get some kind of care. My neighbor's wife was showing very early signs of dementia some years ago, so they quickly transferred their house to their children so they could not be assessed for her long-term care if and when it was needed. And it was needed.

My attorney told me he would not assist someone in divesting their assets in order to avoid having to pay for elder care because it is unethical.

Which is more unethical, saving up money to provide for your own care when you're older (or simply carrying long-term care insurance), or making the state (i.e. taxpayers) pay for it?

This is a tactic I hear about, even in conservative circles. There is a catch, however - you have to do it at least 5 years before the person's funds run out. Otherwise, it has to be given back.

In our case, none of my siblings live in the community where we grew up. It is also the community and congregation in which my mom grew up, and that's where she wants to live, close to her church friends. (In fact, her grandfather was the first Elder - like your 'Bishop', establishing the congregation in 1913.)

My younger brother is the closest, at around 100 miles west. He is a widower, and lives alone. (His wife died a couple of years before our folks moved to the home, in 2018.) He visits Mom often, and has done a lot to help her. My younger sister wanted to take our parents to live with them in Texas, but Mom didn't want to live that far away (about 5 hours drive south). (Dad was already suffering from the severe effects of Alzheimer's, and any change at all was upsetting to him. He passed away 3 years ago, earlier this month. They had moved to this home 2 years before that, when Mom was no longer able to take care of Dad.)

My Mom is ready and wanting to go on to Jesus. I will be sad when she does, but I will be happy for her.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

See attached. Vote and discuss. This was a random thing I found on social media.

FB_IMG_1703078191099.jpg

Strongly agree with numbers 3 and 5. Strongly or softly disagree with all the the others.

What is a "money mindset"? What a worthless item in this list of otherwise practical tips. It seems like the one that most encapsulates something the Christian should NOT have. Where your mindset is, there your heart is also. You cannot serve God and "a money mindset" at the same time.

[Ken]

I spend some time on another forum dedicated to personal finance where I read lots of people's personal stories and problems. Based on my lurking there I think I can say WITHOUT QUESTION that the biggest source of financial carnage for Americans is divorce. I don't think there is a close second.

Marriage is hugely more efficient as a means of social and household organization because you can share and divide responsibilities and cut many of your costs in half compared to two single people. But likewise, divorce destroys financial stability for both partners. And leaves financial wreckage in its wake on top of all the social wreckage.

So for people who want to live modest fruitful lives and do so beneath their means, the number one way to accomplish that is to get married. And the number one way to sustain it is to avoid divorce.

Now I realize that is easy for me to say since I'm happily married and we have no plans to divorce. And others may have no choice and different life realities. But I think that is the stark truth. It also means chose your spouse CAREFULLY and then expend every effort to make it work.

[barnhart]

I was raised in a sea of Christian financial teaching that included concepts similar to the opening post. Christian radio offered daily financial advice programs and once my church hosted a multi evening event on this theme complete with thick workbooks. As I grew into adulthood I began to notice the scriptural underpinning for this teaching was primarily from the old testament and centered around mastering money for profit. Conspicuously absent was Jesus' teaching on money, which is pointedly not profit oriented, and much of the example of the new testament church.

This seems a poor state of affairs for Anabaptists who claim christocentric theology. I don't have good practical answers in the form of an alternate economic system but the abandonment of Jesus for more workable schemes fills me with dread.

[Neto]

....
It is literally impossible in current American economic conditions for the average family to accumulate enough wealth to spend $174k per parent on elder care (for both parents that's $350k per year).
....

I do not know - just asking: Is it really twice as much for a couple, in the same room, as for one person?

I think I heard the figures when my parents moved to the home, but do not recall how much it was when they were both in the home together, in one unit. (Pretty sure it wasn't as much as has been quoted here.) I know that it went up for the last three weeks of my Dad's life, when he had to be moved to a special "Memory Care" unit. That was pretty much like being in the hospital. More recently my mom has moved to a place that offers more care than where they were initially. She now needs help anytime she gets out of bed. That requires 24 hour assistance, because she often has to get up at night. I also don't think my Mom would WANT to have family members do those things for her - it's less embarrassing to have a stranger to do it.

There are a couple of sisters from the church that do a LOT to help her as well. When my Mom could still go places, one of them especially often came & took her shopping. Now, if she needs a doctor, it requires that one either visits there at the home, or she is taken to the hospital in an ambulance. She has fallen a number of times, just trying to get to the bathroom and back to bed. If she had done a hip replacement when she was younger, she could do a lot more, but now the doctors say that she could not heal after such an invasive surgery. This is all "new territory" for us - in the past, no one in our family ever lived past 89. My grandma (my mom's mother) DID live with my parents the last couple of years of her life, and she (my grandma) had taken care of my grandpa for his last years. But she was 17 years younger than he, so she was still fairly young at the time, and they also had hospice care.

[Ken]

Those numbers for assisted living seemed a bit off. So a bit of research:

• The average cost of assisted living in the US is $4500/mo. or $54,000 annually. Although those can vary greatly depending on the type of care needed and geography. https://www.ncoa.org/adviser/local-care ... ing/costs/
• The national average cost of more intensive memory care (Alzheimer's and dementia 24/7 care) is $5,448 or $65,376 annually: https://www.dementiacarecentral.com/
• The average length of stay in assisted living or nursing homes is really hard to pin down. The numbers are all over the place. But here is one HHS report which says the average is 29 months: https://files.asprtracie.hhs.gov/docume ... 17-508.pdf

So on average we are talking about $5,000 per month x 29 months = $145,000 in terms of really rough figures according to the national averages.

One thing to keep in mind is that this is more or less TOTAL living expenses for the person in the nursing home. So if it is a single person or surviving spouse, once they move to a nursing home, no more rent, no more utilities, no more mortgage or property taxes and home maintenance, no more car expenses, no more grocery shopping, etc. So the cost of nursing home care is really the marginal increase relative to their cost of living BEFORE they entered the nursing home. For some people that might be a huge jump up. For others living a more affluent life with vehicles, travel, etc. it may not be much of a cost increase. If you are spending $60,000 per year in retirement then a nursing home may not even be a cost increase.

Of course when one spouse is in the nursing home and one isn't then you have double cost of living. But that doesn't actually happen all that much as more commonly the healthy spouse is taking care of the sickly spouse at home unless it is beyond their capacity such as with dementia. And even then, home health care assistance is usually the much cheaper option.

So while assisted living care is definitely expensive. It isn't necessarily a catastrophic expense for elderly folks who have a retirement nest egg of some sort as long as they fall into the median type of care. Most people these days who own a home probably have at least that much in home equity alone. For someone who is at the upper limits for monthly costs and length of stay it is obviously going to be a lot more.

My own parents are mid-80s and they have what seem to be excellent long term care insurance policies that they bought long ago when such policies were still generous. Hopefully that will fill much of the gap. If not they have savings. My wife's parents are a tougher nut. They are pushing 90 and declining pretty fast but live in Chile and everything is different down there in terms of costs and services. They should be affluent enough to pay for it but we really don't know as they haven't shared much of their finances or intentions with my wife and getting answers out of them is like pulling teeth. At a minimum, home health care is a lot less expensive in Latin America (Chile is full of nurses from Bolivia, Haiti, etc.) who are undocumented and do that kind of work semi-legally under the table. So who knows. We will cross that bridge when we get to it I guess.

[ken_sylvania]

Those numbers for assisted living seemed a bit off. So a bit of research:

• The average cost of assisted living in the US is $4500/mo. or $54,000 annually. Although those can vary greatly depending on the type of care needed and geography. https://www.ncoa.org/adviser/local-care ... ing/costs/
• The national average cost of more intensive memory care (Alzheimer's and dementia 24/7 care) is $5,448 or $65,376 annually: https://www.dementiacarecentral.com/
• The average length of stay in assisted living or nursing homes is really hard to pin down. The numbers are all over the place. But here is one HHS report which says the average is 29 months: https://files.asprtracie.hhs.gov/docume ... 17-508.pdf

So on average we are talking about $5,000 per month x 29 months = $145,000 in terms of really rough figures according to the national averages.

One thing to keep in mind is that this is more or less TOTAL living expenses for the person in the nursing home. So if it is a single person or surviving spouse, once they move to a nursing home, no more rent, no more utilities, no more mortgage or property taxes and home maintenance, no more car expenses, no more grocery shopping, etc. So the cost of nursing home care is really the marginal increase relative to their cost of living BEFORE they entered the nursing home. For some people that might be a huge jump up. For others living a more affluent life with vehicles, travel, etc. it may not be much of a cost increase. If you are spending $60,000 per year in retirement then a nursing home may not even be a cost increase.

The $4,500/mo figure is actually the median cost of an assisted living facility, not necessarily the average. The same study found that the median cost for a nursing home facility is $7,908/mo for a shared room, and $9,034/mo for a private room. That's more than $100,000/yr for a private room at a nursing home.

Also, according to the other site you referenced, the national average cost of memory care is $6,160, not $5,448. And on the West Coast, cost can easily get up to nearly $100,000.

Assisted Living / Memory Care
Nationally, as of February 2023, the average cost of assisted living is $4,950 / month ($54,000 / year). However, memory care (for persons with Alzheimer’s or other related dementia) costs, on average, $1,200 more per month, or $6,160. In the southern states and through the plains, the monthly cost can be as low as $3,850 / month. In the Northeast and on the West Coast, costs are much higher. Families can expect monthly costs upwards of $6,600, even $8,250.