Christian Orders and Lessons for Anabaptists and similar groups

[Ken]

Any thoughts on why we don't encourage people interested in a plain lifestyle to create their own church instead of trying to join an Anabaptist group? Maybe FotW, is an example of this. There's one Spirit over all.

Wouldn't that be un-Biblical and contrary to the teachings of Jesus to tell people "you should be in a church but just not OUR church"

Hypothetical situation...an evolutionary scientist wants to join a plain Mennonite congregation, but the preacher ask him to put his evolutionary views on the shelf. It's a real hurdle for the scientist, in which case I wouldn't encourage him to join the aforementioned congregation, but if he wants to start an Anabaptist congregation that interprets the first Adam differently, go for it.

Most denominations have some sort of articles of faith. Catholics do, Mennonites do, Lutherans do. So it is perfectly legitimate for a church to ask members to agree with their article of faith as a condition of membership.

But someone seeking to join a conservative congregation is presumably already willing to agree with that congregation's articles of faith or we wouldn't have gotten this far. So for example, the Rosedale, (formerly known as CMC) has the following article of faith which makes the following statement about creation: https://rosedalenetwork.org/wp-content/ ... -email.pdf

Creation is a good and supernatural1 work of God, who is the creator of all things, visible and invisible. Creation is the explanation of the origin and existence of all things, including the material universe, the spiritual cosmos, and those beings which by free will rebelled against God and chose an attitude and condition of evil.

And MCUSA has the following statement of faith on the same topic: https://www.mennoniteusa.org/who-are-me ... -of-faith/

We believe that God has created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and that God preserves and renews what has been made. All creation ultimately has its source outside itself and belongs to the Creator. The world has been created good because God is good and provides all that is needed for life. We believe that the universe has been called into being as an expression of God’s love and sovereign freedom alone. Creation witnesses to the eternal power and divine nature of God, who gives meaning and purpose to life and who alone is worthy of worship and praise.

We acknowledge that God sustains creation in both continuity and change. We believe that God upholds order in creation and limits the forces of sin and evil for the sake of preserving and renewing humanity and the world. God also works to save human beings and the world from death and destruction and to overcome the forces of sin and evil.

We therefore are called to respect the natural order of creation and to entrust ourselves to God’s care and keeping, whether in adversity or plenty. Neither the work of human hands, nor the forces of the natural world around us, nor the power of the nations among which we live are worthy of the trust and honor due the Creator on whom they depend.

So yes, I would expect any person seeking to join either of those churches to acknowledge and agree with either of these two articles of faith, respectively. And, by the way, neither of which actually excludes evolution as the driving force of biological change that we see in the world around us.

Most conservative Anabaptist groups like the Beachy Amish adhere to the Dordrecht Confession of Faith which was adopted in 1632 and says the following about creation: https://www.bibleviews.com/Dordrecht.html

Of this same one God, who worketh all in all, we believe and confess that He is the Creator of all things visible and invisible; that He, in six days, created, made, and prepared, heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; and that He still governs and upholds the same and all His works through His wisdom, might, and the word of His power.

And when He had finished His works, and had ordained and prepared them, each in its nature and properties, good and upright, according to His pleasure, He created the first man, the father of us, Adam; whom He formed of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living soul, created by God in His own image and likeness, in righteousness and holiness, unto eternal life. He regarded him above all other creatures, endowed him with many high and glorious gifts, placed him in the pleasure garden or Paradise, and gave him a command and prohibition; afterwards He took a rib from Adam, made a woman therefrom, and brought her to him, joining and giving her to him for a helpmate, companion, and wife; and in consequence of this He also caused, that from this one man Adam, all men that dwell upon the whole earth have descended.

And yes, I would expect that such congregations would expect new members to adhere to that article of faith. Which presumably they would if they have gotten that far. I would not expect them to do as you suggest and tell some prospective member who DOES adhere to all of those articles of faith to go make their own church.

[MaxPC]

Early Anabaptists were sometimes called "the new monastics" because of their commitment to live simple holy lives.

The article below talks about the steps one takes to join a Catholic Order. While I do not support all of Catholic doctrine, and vowing to be part of a particular Order for the rest of one's life, there is lots I think we can learn from them.

I think the reasons many people do not join Anabaptist churches or stay with Anabaptist churches has to do with confusion between what it takes to be a Christian, and what is expected of those who join an Anabaptist church (values and standards), and no way for a seeker to experience full fellowship in the body of Christ, before adopting all of the values and standards.

Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Methodists all have "Orders" and they have a process for joining that allows new people a time to experience many of the spiritual blessings, while learning more about the faith and practices and values of the Order.

Anyhow, I find these steps interesting and I think we could make up our own steps for becoming fully part of the church.

https://aleteia.org/2020/09/19/how-to-j ... ous-order/

One thing that the religious orders do is to assign a mentor to new seekers. The mentor is formally known as a formation director. The position is held by someone with patience, excellent communication skills, and an ability to develop clear curriculum content for the seekers. The mentor is available to answer any questions the seekers have.

[ohio jones]

Conservative Mennonite Church now known as CMC

Conservative Mennonite Conference, initially known as CMC, now known as the Rosedale Network of Churches.

[AndersonD]

Wouldn't that be un-Biblical and contrary to the teachings of Jesus to tell people "you should be in a church but just not OUR church"

Hypothetical situation...an evolutionary scientist wants to join a plain Mennonite congregation, but the preacher ask him to put his evolutionary views on the shelf. It's a real hurdle for the scientist, in which case I wouldn't encourage him to join the aforementioned congregation, but if he wants to start an Anabaptist congregation that interprets the first Adam differently, go for it.

Most denominations have some sort of articles of faith. Catholics do, Mennonites do, Lutherans do. So it is perfectly legitimate for a church to ask members to agree with their article of faith as a condition of membership.

But someone seeking to join a conservative congregation is presumably already willing to agree with that congregation's articles of faith or we wouldn't have gotten this far. So for example, the Rosedale, (formerly known as CMC) has the following article of faith which makes the following statement about creation: https://rosedalenetwork.org/wp-content/ ... -email.pdf

Creation is a good and supernatural1 work of God, who is the creator of all things, visible and invisible. Creation is the explanation of the origin and existence of all things, including the material universe, the spiritual cosmos, and those beings which by free will rebelled against God and chose an attitude and condition of evil.

And MCUSA has the following statement of faith on the same topic: https://www.mennoniteusa.org/who-are-me ... -of-faith/

We believe that God has created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and that God preserves and renews what has been made. All creation ultimately has its source outside itself and belongs to the Creator. The world has been created good because God is good and provides all that is needed for life. We believe that the universe has been called into being as an expression of God’s love and sovereign freedom alone. Creation witnesses to the eternal power and divine nature of God, who gives meaning and purpose to life and who alone is worthy of worship and praise.

We acknowledge that God sustains creation in both continuity and change. We believe that God upholds order in creation and limits the forces of sin and evil for the sake of preserving and renewing humanity and the world. God also works to save human beings and the world from death and destruction and to overcome the forces of sin and evil.

We therefore are called to respect the natural order of creation and to entrust ourselves to God’s care and keeping, whether in adversity or plenty. Neither the work of human hands, nor the forces of the natural world around us, nor the power of the nations among which we live are worthy of the trust and honor due the Creator on whom they depend.

So yes, I would expect any person seeking to join either of those churches to acknowledge and agree with either of these two articles of faith, respectively. And, by the way, neither of which actually excludes evolution as the driving force of biological change that we see in the world around us.

Most conservative Anabaptist groups like the Beachy Amish adhere to the Dordrecht Confession of Faith which was adopted in 1632 and says the following about creation: https://www.bibleviews.com/Dordrecht.html

Of this same one God, who worketh all in all, we believe and confess that He is the Creator of all things visible and invisible; that He, in six days, created, made, and prepared, heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; and that He still governs and upholds the same and all His works through His wisdom, might, and the word of His power.

And when He had finished His works, and had ordained and prepared them, each in its nature and properties, good and upright, according to His pleasure, He created the first man, the father of us, Adam; whom He formed of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living soul, created by God in His own image and likeness, in righteousness and holiness, unto eternal life. He regarded him above all other creatures, endowed him with many high and glorious gifts, placed him in the pleasure garden or Paradise, and gave him a command and prohibition; afterwards He took a rib from Adam, made a woman therefrom, and brought her to him, joining and giving her to him for a helpmate, companion, and wife; and in consequence of this He also caused, that from this one man Adam, all men that dwell upon the whole earth have descended.

And yes, I would expect that such congregations would expect new members to adhere to that article of faith. Which presumably they would if they have gotten that far. I would not expect them to do as you suggest and tell some prospective member who DOES adhere to all of those articles of faith to go make their own church.

I don't know of too many people interested in a plain lifestyle who start off with Articles of Faith and my post assumed the individual wanted to join a plain group, not MC USA or Rosedale. And I am simply throwing an idea out there that you question if it's Biblical which is a good question...not something I have asked myself.

[AndersonD]

I know a seeker, now a Mennonite, who joined a conference that holds to the Dordrecht Confession who went through instruction class and was baptized and held your view of Genesis, Ken. It went years before he changed his views about Genesis. He wasn't interested in joining a MC USA church, rather a traditional Mennonite group but the Mennonite interpretation of Genesis was a tough one.

[Ken]

I don't know of too many people interested in a plain lifestyle who start off with Articles of Faith and my post assumed the individual wanted to join a plain group, not MC USA or Rosedale. And I am simply throwing an idea out there that you question if it's Biblical which is a good question...not something I have asked myself.

My point in response to your question is that it is perfectly acceptable for churches and denominations to establish doctrine or articles of faith and then expect converts and members to hold to them. Whether the subject is creation, nonresistance, baptism or anything else.

I think it is less Christian or Biblical for churches to reject people who do hold to their articles of faith and instead send them elsewhere. I don't consider that to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

[ken_sylvania]

Wouldn't that be un-Biblical and contrary to the teachings of Jesus to tell people "you should be in a church but just not OUR church"

Hypothetical situation...an evolutionary scientist wants to join a plain Mennonite congregation, but the preacher ask him to put his evolutionary views on the shelf. It's a real hurdle for the scientist, in which case I wouldn't encourage him to join the aforementioned congregation, but if he wants to start an Anabaptist congregation that interprets the first Adam differently, go for it.

Most denominations have some sort of articles of faith. Catholics do, Mennonites do, Lutherans do. So it is perfectly legitimate for a church to ask members to agree with their article of faith as a condition of membership.

But someone seeking to join a conservative congregation is presumably already willing to agree with that congregation's articles of faith or we wouldn't have gotten this far. So for example, the Rosedale, (formerly known as CMC) has the following article of faith which makes the following statement about creation: https://rosedalenetwork.org/wp-content/ ... -email.pdf

Creation is a good and supernatural1 work of God, who is the creator of all things, visible and invisible. Creation is the explanation of the origin and existence of all things, including the material universe, the spiritual cosmos, and those beings which by free will rebelled against God and chose an attitude and condition of evil.

And MCUSA has the following statement of faith on the same topic: https://www.mennoniteusa.org/who-are-me ... -of-faith/

We believe that God has created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, and that God preserves and renews what has been made. All creation ultimately has its source outside itself and belongs to the Creator. The world has been created good because God is good and provides all that is needed for life. We believe that the universe has been called into being as an expression of God’s love and sovereign freedom alone. Creation witnesses to the eternal power and divine nature of God, who gives meaning and purpose to life and who alone is worthy of worship and praise.

We acknowledge that God sustains creation in both continuity and change. We believe that God upholds order in creation and limits the forces of sin and evil for the sake of preserving and renewing humanity and the world. God also works to save human beings and the world from death and destruction and to overcome the forces of sin and evil.

We therefore are called to respect the natural order of creation and to entrust ourselves to God’s care and keeping, whether in adversity or plenty. Neither the work of human hands, nor the forces of the natural world around us, nor the power of the nations among which we live are worthy of the trust and honor due the Creator on whom they depend.

So yes, I would expect any person seeking to join either of those churches to acknowledge and agree with either of these two articles of faith, respectively. And, by the way, neither of which actually excludes evolution as the driving force of biological change that we see in the world around us.

Most conservative Anabaptist groups like the Beachy Amish adhere to the Dordrecht Confession of Faith which was adopted in 1632 and says the following about creation: https://www.bibleviews.com/Dordrecht.html

Of this same one God, who worketh all in all, we believe and confess that He is the Creator of all things visible and invisible; that He, in six days, created, made, and prepared, heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; and that He still governs and upholds the same and all His works through His wisdom, might, and the word of His power.

And when He had finished His works, and had ordained and prepared them, each in its nature and properties, good and upright, according to His pleasure, He created the first man, the father of us, Adam; whom He formed of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living soul, created by God in His own image and likeness, in righteousness and holiness, unto eternal life. He regarded him above all other creatures, endowed him with many high and glorious gifts, placed him in the pleasure garden or Paradise, and gave him a command and prohibition; afterwards He took a rib from Adam, made a woman therefrom, and brought her to him, joining and giving her to him for a helpmate, companion, and wife; and in consequence of this He also caused, that from this one man Adam, all men that dwell upon the whole earth have descended.

And yes, I would expect that such congregations would expect new members to adhere to that article of faith. Which presumably they would if they have gotten that far. I would not expect them to do as you suggest and tell some prospective member who DOES adhere to all of those articles of faith to go make their own church.

Considering that these statements of faith seem to basically summarize what the Bible says about creation I don't see why any Christian would have a problem agreeing with them.

[Ken]

Considering that these statements of faith seem to basically summarize what the Bible says about creation I don't see why any Christian would have a problem agreeing with them.

They are different though. The first two are very general statements that don't necessarily adhere to a literal 7-day young earth view of creation. One can view Genesis as being written metaphorically and still adhere to either of these statements.

The last one is actually a literal 7-day view of creation. So different.

And even so I can imagine that many churches might welcome sincere Christians as members even if they don't necessarily adhere to every article of faith of that particular congregation. It really depends on how doctrinaire they want to be. My point was simply that I don't think it is Biblical to exclude people from a church if they do willingly adhere to all of the doctrine of that church. I'm sure there are churches that still do so. I just don't think it is consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

[ken_sylvania]

Considering that these statements of faith seem to basically summarize what the Bible says about creation I don't see why any Christian would have a problem agreeing with them.

They are different though. The first two are very general statements that don't necessarily adhere to a literal 7-day young earth view of creation. One can view Genesis as being written metaphorically and still adhere to either of these statements.

The last one is actually a literal 7-day view of creation. So different.

And even so I can imagine that many churches might welcome sincere Christians as members even if they don't necessarily adhere to every article of faith of that particular congregation. It really depends on how doctrinaire they want to be. My point was simply that I don't think it is Biblical to exclude people from a church if they do willingly adhere to all of the doctrine of that church. I'm sure there are churches that still do so. I just don't think it is consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

The second one doesn't look any more like a literal 7-day view of creation than do Genesis 1 and Exodus 20:11.

[joshuabgood]

I talk about this model regularly, but so far I can't get much traction...folks have a fundamental mindset.