Appalachian Mennonite Church

[Josh]

Our conference doesn't use the lot, but does use secret ballots to nominate candidates, which are then counted by the local deacons, deacons/ministers from the nearest congregation, plus two outside visiting ministers from random congregations who have just completed a set of revival meetings (Holdeman revivals are much more like Advent or Lent in being a purpose to prepare for communion, with a secondary purpose to be a call for unbelievers in the meetings to answer the call to become born again). The outside deacons and ministers outnumber the local staff, so rigging it would be a complicated affair.

This effectively is a committee formed to evaluate the congregation's ballots, and they do have "veto power", but in practice the veto is exercised simply for a candidate who isn't eligible. (Someone who has been previously excommunicated for sexual immorality or false doctrine isn't eligible, or his wife has been, as far as I know, and some personal circumstances make one ineligible; I'm unclear on the status of divorced persons, but I think that used to enter in play. Not sure if it still does. I'm not sure if one has ever made it that far yet.)

In the event of a rebellious or corrupt local ministry, the outsiders would probably observe there was a problem, not go forward with the ordination process, and then deal with that problem. These do occasionally happen - and they are not fun to deal with. Having nearly-randomly chosen outside leadership present greatly lessens the chance of corruption, much as mike says it happens in his conference.

Of course, an identical process could be conducted in a "politburo" fashion. There isn't much you can do to avoid corruption and rigging if the leadership decides it's going to be a politburo. In our own conference, members would start to exit a congregation that was being operated by a politburo (moving to another congregation); a few members would raise an issue, outside leaders would come in, and deal with it. For whatever reason, a politburo never emerged here, although from reading historical accounts, one existed in the past.

[mike]

This ordination discussion probably merits its own thread.

Other than possibly weddings, ordinations are the events in conservative Anabaptist churches with the most pomp and circumstance. In the one I have observed, virtually all of our conference's ministers attended, a sizeable group, and some or all of the bishops sat on the raised stage. The rest ministry and their wives are all given the front rows of seats. Families of the people being ordained, or in the lot, are seated next. The local church takes up the back of the building. It has the atmosphere of a grave and solemn setting.

I expected stuff like this when I joined the conference but it is still so culturally surprising. The seating seems utterly backward, because the local church is the body which chose the leader and whom the leader will ostensibly be serving, and yet they literally get the back seat. When a minister is ordained for a church in our conference, the local church actually sees less of them. Because they are immediately placed in rotation to preach throughout not only our church but all the others. And they of course attend bimonthly conference-wide ministers' meetings.

I haven't really said this out loud yet, but it is my developing theory that an ordained person generally becomes so busy with official church and conference tasks that he can no longer develop ordinary friendships and relationships with people in his church like he used to. It's kind of unfortunate. I start to understand why people cry at ordinations.

[steve-in-kville]

I haven't really said this out loud yet, but it is my developing theory that an ordained person generally becomes so busy with official church and conference tasks that he can no longer develop ordinary friendships and relationships with people in his church like he used to. It's kind of unfortunate. I start to understand why people cry at ordinations.

I can believe that. I was told on more than one occasion that a minister's wife has it just as hard as the husband, just in different ways.

[Ernie]

This ordination discussion probably merits its own thread.

Other than possibly weddings, ordinations are the events in conservative Anabaptist churches with the most pomp and circumstance. In the one I have observed, virtually all of our conference's ministers attended, a sizeable group, and some or all of the bishops sat on the raised stage. The rest ministry and their wives are all given the front rows of seats. Families of the people being ordained, or in the lot, are seated next. The local church takes up the back of the building. It has the atmosphere of a grave and solemn setting.

I expected stuff like this when I joined the conference but it is still so culturally surprising. The seating seems utterly backward, because the local church is the body which chose the leader and whom the leader will ostensibly be serving, and yet they literally get the back seat. When a minister is ordained for a church in our conference, the local church actually sees less of them. Because they are immediately placed in rotation to preach throughout not only our church but all the others. And they of course attend bimonthly conference-wide ministers' meetings.

I haven't really said this out loud yet, but it is my developing theory that an ordained person generally becomes so busy with official church and conference tasks that he can no longer develop ordinary friendships and relationships with people in his church like he used to. It's kind of unfortunate. I start to understand why people cry at ordinations.

Yep. At our most recent ordination, there was a lot of pomp and circumstance.
Some in our congregation feel that it should be this way (likely due to their Mennonite upbringing)
But at least the congregation was seated up front.

German Baptists have very few attendees at ordinations other than the local congregation.

[Ernie]

How would he have made sure the man got nominated?

Nominated that person himself. In this setting that was allowed, I guess.

So one nomination gets a person in the lot? That's odd. I've heard numbers as low as 3 votes getting a person in the lot, but never just 1.

I think it only takes one vote for Old Order Mennonites and Washington/Franklin

[mike]

Yep. At our most recent ordination, there was a lot of pomp and circumstance.
Some in our congregation feel that it should be this way (likely due to their Mennonite upbringing)
But at least the congregation was seated up front.

German Baptists have very few attendees at ordinations other than the local congregation.

Having lots of people I don't know at an ordination where our congregation is choosing a minister seems about as odd to me as having the owners of ten other local businesses present at a meeting between myself and my employees. Awkward.

[Josh]

Is the actual selection process a different day than the ordination?

We have the nomination/ballots etc. on a day that is a closed members meeting. Only members of the church are present, plus outside ministers who make previous arrangements to oversee the nomination process and ballot counting as I described earlier.

The actual "ordination" is sort of a formality. One of the visiting ministers will give a sermon. Lots of random people show up, but there is not special seating. (I find the idea of special seating for an ordination offensive, frankly. It is not a wedding.) At the next Sunday, the newly ordained preacher will give his first official sermon. (It may not be his first, since if there are no preachers, laymen will give sermons; deacons may give sermons; and missionaries give them overseas and occasionally are asked to preach when on furlough at home, albeit often in the format of a "mission report".)

[mike]

Is the actual selection process a different day than the ordination?

We have the nomination/ballots etc. on a day that is a closed members meeting. Only members of the church are present, plus outside ministers who make previous arrangements to oversee the nomination process and ballot counting as I described earlier.

The actual "ordination" is sort of a formality. One of the visiting ministers will give a sermon. Lots of random people show up, but there is not special seating. (I find the idea of special seating for an ordination offensive, frankly. It is not a wedding.) At the next Sunday, the newly ordained preacher will give his first official sermon. (It may not be his first, since if there are no preachers, laymen will give sermons; deacons may give sermons; and missionaries give them overseas and occasionally are asked to preach when on furlough at home, albeit often in the format of a "mission report".)

It's a different day. I haven't been to a voting meeting, but I understand there are other conference ministers and bishops present, plus the outside guy. So, like yours. The ordination itself is only a formality if there is no lot. If there's a lot, it's when the leader is determined.

I don't know how soon a new minister is used. Probably not the next Sunday, but pretty shortly thereafter. And our boys had better get in gear right quick; we don't get any practice runs.

[Judas Maccabeus]

How can a lot be rigged? The last lot I saw surely was not.

The situation I witnessed involved a bishop that wanted a certain person ordained, not who the people wanted. He made sure this man's name got nominated. There were two others in that lot and he had them disqualified within a day or so. People cried foul but there was nothing that could have been done.

Only one bishop involved? In the last one I saw there were three! If other bishops were involved it was simply wrong. Nothing else could be done? Lead like that and you might just have no one left to lead.

[Josh]

Can't the congregation vote no confidence in an ordained person? We have that procedure (although I hear it hasn't been used in a long time). Basically if "facts" come to light right after they are nominated via ballot, it's basically a way to withdraw.