Old Order Amish & technology?

[JayP]

I do not think there was a single issue or method in EPMC loosening up on the internet per se. The factor of work realities wa significant. For example, you run a John Deere dealership but you no longer can use a paper catalog to look up parts or place orders by phone. Or you raise hogs on contract and the main business wants internet connected devices monitoring the barn etc. It is easy for the small dairy farmer in Adams county or cabinet maker to tell you let’s hold the line hard, but putting folks out of work does not just hit the pocketbook it affects the work that allows a way of life that they otherwise want

Not saying I have an answer. Just saying it is more complicated than some believe.

[Josh]

I do not think there was a single issue or method in EPMC loosening up on the internet per se. The factor of work realities wa significant. For example, you run a John Deere dealership but you no longer can use a paper catalog to look up parts or place orders by phone. Or you raise hogs on contract and the main business wants internet connected devices monitoring the barn etc. It is easy for the small dairy farmer in Adams county or cabinet maker to tell you let’s hold the line hard, but putting folks out of work does not just hit the pocketbook it affects the work that allows a way of life that they otherwise want

Not saying I have an answer. Just saying it is more complicated than some believe.

Is it really necessary for Christians who supposedly are pursuing a plain and simple life to own John Deere dealerships which are multimillion dollar enterprises?

[JayP]

Understand, I am not a member of Eastern or any Mennonite church, so I am not being defensive. It is easy to knock some of the bigger economic businesses that some have. I agree with your general sentiment. But perpetuation of these churches requires work that. Supports a way of life. Does not mean you sacrifice all for money but for example, those larger businesses often find work for some that otherwise would be in real trouble. From routine workers to I know many such businesses that find work for a single sister,older folks, or special needs

I am not justifying big business operations, I was simply trying to find examples I knew of where the pressure for no internet at all impacts how the decisions are considered. You may have whatever view you wish on the internet, business, or even Eastern. lol, I did. I am no longer in such a setting.

But do not shoot the messenger. Holdnthe opinion you wish, but understanding What Who Where why are valuable.

[Josh]

Understand, I am not a member of Eastern or any Mennonite church, so I am not being defensive. It is easy to knock some of the bigger economic businesses that some have. I agree with your general sentiment. But perpetuation of these churches requires work that. Supports a way of life. Does not mean you sacrifice all for money but for example, those larger businesses often find work for some that otherwise would be in real trouble. From routine workers to I know many such businesses that find work for a single sister,older folks, or special needs

I am not justifying big business operations, I was simply trying to find examples I knew of where the pressure for no internet at all impacts how the decisions are considered. You may have whatever view you wish on the internet, business, or even Eastern. lol, I did. I am no longer in such a setting.

But do not shoot the messenger. Holdnthe opinion you wish, but understanding What Who Where why are valuable.

Yes. There are many seemingly good arguments for having a big business. Another frequently cited view is that the extra money can be donated to missions (even tho reality is that it is more likely to be donated to the Sarasota real estate market).

My question is what would Anabaptists from the 1500s think? The argument here is that a church must needs compromise its standards so that wealthy millionaires can keep becoming even more wealthy. If they really needed to, big businesses can be run without Internet. It is possible. Perhaps some changes would need to be made. Amish groups that are anti Internet run some very large enterprises without having Internet on premises (and yes I realise that is becoming less and less easy).

Ultimately, I think the stratification of wealth in Mennonite circles is offensive to the message of the gospel and goes against the clear teachings of Acts 2 and 4, and worse yet, it is often the wedge issue for lifestyle (not political) liberalism infiltrating the church. I think I’d rather we all be poor but following Jesus than have some rich so they can provide $10/hr jobs whilst we all are drifting away from following the Master.

[JayP]

Again I do not disagree with your points. Just the picture you are painting. In my experiences I do not believe major decisions by Eastern for example, are being drive by a bunch of millionaires. The leadership are not rich, do not have homes in FL. Most of th e internet friction points I am aware of, or asked about, concern very middle class type businesses.

[Josh]

Again I do not disagree with your points. Just the picture you are painting. In my experiences I do not believe major decisions by Eastern for example, are being drive by a bunch of millionaires. The leadership are not rich, do not have homes in FL. Most of th e internet friction points I am aware of, or asked about, concern very middle class type businesses.

Maybe we have different ideas of “middle class”. A John Deere dealership doesn’t fit my definition.

“Middle class” to me is a 2 child family with a $60,000 a year income.

[ken_sylvania]

Maybe we have different ideas of “middle class”. A John Deere dealership doesn’t fit my definition.

“Middle class” to me is a 2 child family with a $60,000 a year income.

Yes, we have laws and regulations written by corporate lobbyists. We have taxes that burden the middle class whilst the top 0.1% pay just 15%.
I’m not an anarchist but I also think rule by for profit corps is not a good thing.

So which is it? We don't have taxes that burden a family of four making $60k annually.

[Josh]

Maybe we have different ideas of “middle class”. A John Deere dealership doesn’t fit my definition.

“Middle class” to me is a 2 child family with a $60,000 a year income.

Yes, we have laws and regulations written by corporate lobbyists. We have taxes that burden the middle class whilst the top 0.1% pay just 15%.
I’m not an anarchist but I also think rule by for profit corps is not a good thing.

So which is it? We don't have taxes that burden a family of four making $60k annually.

In my state they would pay standard payroll taxes plus state and city income tax. And of course sales tax, and property tax.

It’s true that the bottom 50% of Americans don’t have a tax burden anymore. People in the middle are the ones really getting squeezed. I picked the number I did since median income in my state is $61k and the average family size is 2 children.

[JayP]

Respectfully
, how can your definition of middle class possibly relate to folks in churches like Eastern?

And by the way, I never suggested the average Mennonite owned a Deere distributorship.

Note, there are many people that own a business that has grown to a size that is perceived as large and valuable.
But many that grew to that success are only that valuable is sold! And many in such communities would rather keep the business rolling along, providing good jobs for a number of their members.

And as usual the thread has gone far from where it started. I will help fix it by bowing out on the thread from here on in,

[Ken]

Maybe we have different ideas of “middle class”. A John Deere dealership doesn’t fit my definition.

“Middle class” to me is a 2 child family with a $60,000 a year income.

Yes, we have laws and regulations written by corporate lobbyists. We have taxes that burden the middle class whilst the top 0.1% pay just 15%.
I’m not an anarchist but I also think rule by for profit corps is not a good thing.

So which is it? We don't have taxes that burden a family of four making $60k annually.

In my state they would pay standard payroll taxes plus state and city income tax. And of course sales tax, and property tax.

It’s true that the bottom 50% of Americans don’t have a tax burden anymore. People in the middle are the ones really getting squeezed. I picked the number I did since median income in my state is $61k and the average family size is 2 children.

This is easy enough to figure out. Here is a paycheck calculator for Ohio: https://smartasset.com/taxes/ohio-paycheck-calculator

In Ohio, someone earning $60,000 and married filing jointly would see an aggregate tax rate of about 22% and out of a semi-monthly paycheck of $2500 would see a take-home pay of $1,959. And that doesn't count sales or property taxes.

Someone earning $10/hr or about $20,000 per year would see an aggregate tax rate of about 19% and out of a semi-monthly paycheck of $833 they would see take-home pay of $678. Again, that doesn't include sales or property taxes.

No one escapes paying taxes in this country, certainly not the poor.