Conservative to progressive....

[Soloist]

I think it’s best to stick to the simple reading of Acts 2:38.

Growing up in Pentecostal circles, one believes the rather absurd notion that the rest of Christendom somehow lacks the Holy Spirit. I think this is a very false notion and one worth categorically speaking against.

You do that. I’ll stick to both passages rather then only the one.

The other rather major assumption is that speaking in tongues is a necessary sign of being filled with the Spirit. The NT does not directly ever say this.

You must be ignoring what I actually wrote. I asked you a question on the passage I posted. Never did I say anything about having to speak in tongues. Please reread my posts before assuming.

[Sudsy]

This is some push back on all Pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit. The largest Pentecostal organization (Assemblies of God) ) does not believe speaking in tongues is required for salvation. What their core beliefs are can be found here - https://ag.org/Beliefs/Statement-of-Fun ... l-Truths#7

But there are non-Trinitarian Pentecostals often referred to as 'Oneness Pentecostals' or 'Jesus Only Pentecostals'. Their numbers can be seen here under this - 'List of Oneness Pentecostal Churches'. A small percent of all Pentecostals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... ominations

The Oneness Pentecostals believe salvation requires repentance and belief in Jesus, water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, with speaking in tongues. I married a Oneness Pentecostal pastor's daughter and got quite familiar with their beliefs. Their main formula for salvation is what Peter said in Acts 2:38.

The local Pentecostal church I was raised in is part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. They baptise by immersion in the Matthew 28:19 formula and speaking in tongues is not required to be saved. I won't get into what Pentecostals believe about speaking in tongues but it is being mis-lead to think the vast majority of Pentecostals believe if one does not speak in an unknown tongue they do not have the Holy Spirit living within.

[Ernie]

every single Amish and Mennonite person has already experienced baptism of the Holy Spirit

The Bible makes it clear every baptised person (legitimately repents and is baptised, obviously) receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Words you use have meaning or it’s empty babble. The response is to your words “every single”

Every single Amish and Mennonite member has been baptised. By definition they are born again (born “of water”), received the Holy Ghost, and had remission of their sins.

Perhaps some are illegitimate but I don’t think we should get busy questioning whether other people are sincerely born again or decided to get baptised under false pretenses? Anyway, perhaps I should have said “every baptised Amish and Mennonite person”.

This is in response to Valerie’s accusation that almost no Amish or Mennonite people are “baptised in the Spirit”.

Any Amish or Mennonite who is baptized and continues to live in sin is not baptized in the Spirit. They simply got wet.
But if they were sincere when they were baptized, repented of their sins, and believed in Jesus, and began walking in newness of life, then "yes", I think they have been baptized in the Spirit.

[Valerie]

This is some push back on all Pentecostals believe you must speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit. The largest Pentecostal organization (Assemblies of God) ) does not believe speaking in tongues is required for salvation. What their core beliefs are can be found here - https://ag.org/Beliefs/Statement-of-Fun ... l-Truths#7

But there are non-Trinitarian Pentecostals often referred to as 'Oneness Pentecostals' or 'Jesus Only Pentecostals'. Their numbers can be seen here under this - 'List of Oneness Pentecostal Churches'. A small percent of all Pentecostals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... ominations

The Oneness Pentecostals believe salvation requires repentance and belief in Jesus, water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, with speaking in tongues. I married a Oneness Pentecostal pastor's daughter and got quite familiar with their beliefs. Their main formula for salvation is what Peter said in Acts 2:38.

The local Pentecostal church I was raised in is part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. They baptise by immersion in the Matthew 28:19 formula and speaking in tongues is not required to be saved. I won't get into what Pentecostals believe about speaking in tongues but it is being mis-lead to think the vast majority of Pentecostals believe if one does not speak in an unknown tongue they do not have the Holy Spirit living within.

Thank you Sudsy. We belonged to another large Pentecost denomination (Foursquare) and they NEVER said speaking in tongues iscrequired so Now I understand Hosh as he was exposed to "Oneness" and you shared what I did not know about them.

I think the distinction is the understanding of what is meant nby filled with the Spirit and Baptism of the Holy Spirit the way many Pentecostal Churches teach. The Church I brought up earlier that is many former Amish & Mennonites believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Gifts which may include tongues but not required as evidence as tongues is only one among many spiritual gifts.

Josh's experience with Obeness somewhat explains his attitude.

[steve-in-kville]

I miss the a capela singing. And a sense of community. We still have that now, but it's different.

I don't miss having all the power and control consolidated in one or two people.

I miss the appreciation of large families... sort of.

[steve-in-kville]

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[Josh]

I wasn’t talking about Oneness Pentecostals.

I was talking about the groups I grew up around (basically AOG) that taught getting filled with the spirit is somehow different than being born again and baptised. And that the evidence is speaking in tongues. (Those particular churches have changed to claiming other “manifestations” like “holy laughter”, roaring/barking, shaking uncontrollably, and so forth, for example as happened during the “Toronto Blessing”).

[Ernie]

I wasn’t talking about Oneness Pentecostals.

I was talking about the groups I grew up around (basically AOG) that taught getting filled with the spirit is somehow different than being born again and baptised. And that the evidence is speaking in tongues. (Those particular churches have changed to claiming other “manifestations” like “holy laughter”, roaring/barking, shaking uncontrollably, and so forth, for example as happened during the “Toronto Blessing”).

The same sorts of things happened with George Whitfield and people called it revival then and now.

At most outdoor meetings from 1740-1742, the noise was so loud in the audience that Whitefield says he could hardly hear himself speaking. In his memoirs, Whitefield and others describe the noises as “roarings, agonies, screamings, tremblings, ravings, and even barking like dogs”.
John Wesley wrote to Whitefield, “You know that a lot of this is of the flesh.”
“Yes.” Whitefield admitted.
“Then stamp out what is false,” John Wesley replied.
Whitefield replied. “If you stamp out what is of the flesh, you will kill what is real.”

[Valerie]

I wasn’t talking about Oneness Pentecostals.

I was talking about the groups I grew up around (basically AOG) that taught getting filled with the spirit is somehow different than being born again and baptised. And that the evidence is speaking in tongues. (Those particular churches have changed to claiming other “manifestations” like “holy laughter”, roaring/barking, shaking uncontrollably, and so forth, for example as happened during the “Toronto Blessing”).

Are you sure?? Where we were around forc4 decades- those wield manifestations in some Vineyard Chirches were not accepted when discerning of spirits. OF Course Satan will raise his iugly head in spiritual gifts. How obvious can he be to then try to eliminate the gifts if the Spirit. See how the Church then becomes denying of authentic? Are we not aware of his schemes? It didn't work with Moses & Pharoes counterfeiting- it shouldn't work now to deny the truth about spiritual gifts.

As far as Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second work, you were led to other parts of Acts about this which you don't seem to answer or acknowledge. We know in part. However, Paul encouraged us to desire Spiritual gifts so don't let counterfeit dismiss the real. Don't deny the Spirits many facets.

[Josh]

Are you sure??

Yes. I spent my age 13 going to meetings 5 or 6 nights a week with my family, and then took regular “pilgrimages” up to Toronto every few months.

Where we were around forc4 decades- those wield manifestations in some Vineyard Chirches were not accepted when discerning of spirits. OF Course Satan will raise his iugly head in spiritual gifts. How obvious can he be to then try to eliminate the gifts if the Spirit. See how the Church then becomes denying of authentic? Are we not aware of his schemes? It didn't work with Moses & Pharoes counterfeiting- it shouldn't work now to deny the truth about spiritual gifts.

I believe the “truth” about spiritual gifts is what is taught in the Bible and I think the place to start is the fruits of the spirit.

As far as Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second work, you were led to other parts of Acts about this which you don't seem to answer or acknowledge. We know in part. However, Paul encouraged us to desire Spiritual gifts so don't let counterfeit dismiss the real. Don't deny the Spirits many facets.

The simple fact is that people don’t get born again two times, despite what Wesleyan Holiness people ran around the country saying. I believe Acts 2:38 is true. And I think you need to acknowledge that every sincerely baptised person who has truly believed and repented (which is most Anabaptist churchgoers and dare I say most evangelicals too) is already filled with the Spirit.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, self control… not babbling nonsense.

With that said I respect the ACTUAL fruit of the Spirit I see from Pentecostals and charismatics. I really respect how Bethel Church has completely transformed Redding and Shasta County. And the Oneness Pentecostals have led many young people to Christ in my town and their youth services are burgeoning so much they’re having to expand their building. Those are the fruits that are important.