Conservative to progressive....

[Josh]

The Bible doesn’t talk about babbling nonsense that nobody can understand and which is never reasonably interpreted.

Paul talks about that (negatively).

Good point; thanks for the correction.

[Valerie]

The Bible doesn’t talk about babbling nonsense that nobody can understand and which is never reasonably interpreted.

Paul talks about that (negatively).

Good point; thanks for the correction.

You were not in Corinth to hear what it sounded like at all. And in Acts they wrote accused of being drunk. Certainlyvcounterfeitcexists among the authentic. Without discernment one may not know the difference. A man with experience is not at mercy with a man with an argument- or can profess to know all mysteries.

Where is George when I need him? Anyways this is a bunny trail now.

[Josh]

You were not in Corinth to hear what it sounded like at all. And in Acts they wrote accused of being drunk. Certainlyvcounterfeitcexists among the authentic. Without discernment one may not know the difference. A man with experience is not at mercy with a man with an argument- or can profess to know all mysteries.

I trust what the Bible reports, where it says that "We hear them speaking the mysteries of God in our own language."

In Corinthians it teaches us that speaking in unknown tongues is out of order without an interpreter. I will stand by what I see clearly taught in Corinthians.

With that said, I don't harass Pentecostal people are expect them to change their doctrines, but I am opposed to Pentecostal false teaching infiltrating Anabaptist churches and will oppose it whenever it shows up in my own circles.

As an aside, I can speak in tongues along with the best of them - so I am very familiar with what speaking in tongues is like, and I have participate in both Pentecostal, charismatic, and Jesus-only tongues speaking church services (interestingly, the 3 of them speak in tongues in different "dialects").

[Sudsy]

I might caution about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. As Scripturevteaches to earnestly desire the gift, some so. And some can interpret it. There can be phoney among the real. Satan loves people to doubt the real because he hates it. Nonetheless if one has the gift they don't have to answer to those who don't believe. God knows the difference.

I might caution that babbling nonsense and claiming it is o the Spirit could just as likely be “blasphemy of the Spirit”, although I try to be charitable for what people do out of ignorance.

As I said earlier I have yet to see any interpretations. Just a lot of nonsense, and nothing that builds the kingdom of heaven.

I have heard the gifts of tongues and the gift of interpretation at work. Your experiences or lack of does not mean something taught in Scripture and encouraged in Scripture should be dismissed by those who aren't comfortable with it. Some believe that they should believe Apistle Paul about Spiritual gifts just as much (or more) than they should believe his brief teaching about headcovering. You can't blame people for desiring the gifts he taught about and he had positive reasons he conveyed. Not everyone has the faith or desire for them but I caution criticism of those who do

Valerie, it seems to me some believers are afraid of the supernatural at work more than others. We can always dress a distinct way or live without certain things that don't require anything supernatural to do them. But when it comes to the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, then some will avoid that subject and some due to fears of what they have seen and/or heard of what were called supernatural gifts activity. One of these Spiritual Gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 is discerning of spirits. This indicates to me that when we are participating in supernatural gifts there will be a need for someone to have the gift of the discerning of spirits. These gifts also are given out by the Holy Spirit and I think that satan has his counterfeits. So, instead of sticking to the guidance given in 1 Cor 12 in how these gifts are to be used, I have seen emotions or opening up to other spirits take over and do things not found in the NT. I have read where this even occured in early years of Anabaptism and in my lifetime I have witnessed some pretty strange activities described as being 'drunk in the Spirit'.

I'm reminded of the verse in 2 Timothy 3 where in the last days it gives identifiers of those we should keep away from. The last mentioned being those having 'a form of godliness but denying it's power'. Seems to me there is a great deal of Christianity today, some Anabaptists included, that do not operate in the supernatural power of the Spirit as described in the NT. There are outward appearances of godliness (dress, certain other behaviours) and some are even skeptical of a born again, radical life changing, experience. When I hear Christians coming up with solutions to things in this world that are not rooted in people first having a supernatural relationship with God but rather following certain religious or earthly minded solutions, I think they have wandered from experiencing the NT Gospel that saves us. One can say in church that Jesus is the answer but is this how I live ? Wish I could say I live that way more than I do but I ain't at that level yet.

[Valerie]

You were not in Corinth to hear what it sounded like at all. And in Acts they wrote accused of being drunk. Certainlyvcounterfeitcexists among the authentic. Without discernment one may not know the difference. A man with experience is not at mercy with a man with an argument- or can profess to know all mysteries.

I trust what the Bible reports, where it says that "We hear them speaking the mysteries of God in our own language."

In Corinthians it teaches us that speaking in unknown tongues is out of order without an interpreter. I will stand by what I see clearly taught in Corinthians.

With that said, I don't harass Pentecostal people are expect them to change their doctrines, but I am opposed to Pentecostal false teaching infiltrating Anabaptist churches and will oppose it whenever it shows up in my own circles.

As an aside, I can speak in tongues along with the best of them - so I am very familiar with what speaking in tongues is like, and I have participate in both Pentecostal, charismatic, and Jesus-only tongues speaking church services (interestingly, the 3 of them speak in tongues in different "dialects").

You seemed to skip some of what Paul teaches about it, either you didn't read it entirely which then your not reporting accurately, or you are purposely leaving out some parts dishonestly assuming no one reads it . I understand, have seen this countless times in my life.

[Valerie]

I might caution that babbling nonsense and claiming it is o the Spirit could just as likely be “blasphemy of the Spirit”, although I try to be charitable for what people do out of ignorance.

As I said earlier I have yet to see any interpretations. Just a lot of nonsense, and nothing that builds the kingdom of heaven.

I have heard the gifts of tongues and the gift of interpretation at work. Your experiences or lack of does not mean something taught in Scripture and encouraged in Scripture should be dismissed by those who aren't comfortable with it. Some believe that they should believe Apistle Paul about Spiritual gifts just as much (or more) than they should believe his brief teaching about headcovering. You can't blame people for desiring the gifts he taught about and he had positive reasons he conveyed. Not everyone has the faith or desire for them but I caution criticism of those who do

Valerie, it seems to me some believers are afraid of the supernatural at work more than others. We can always dress a distinct way or live without certain things that don't require anything supernatural to do them. But when it comes to the supernatural gifts of the Spirit, then some will avoid that subject and some due to fears of what they have seen and/or heard of what were called supernatural gifts activity. One of these Spiritual Gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 is discerning of spirits. This indicates to me that when we are participating in supernatural gifts there will be a need for someone to have the gift of the discerning of spirits. These gifts also are given out by the Holy Spirit and I think that satan has his counterfeits. So, instead of sticking to the guidance given in 1 Cor 12 in how these gifts are to be used, I have seen emotions or opening up to other spirits take over and do things not found in the NT. I have read where this even occured in early years of Anabaptism and in my lifetime I have witnessed some pretty strange activities described as being 'drunk in the Spirit'.

I'm reminded of the verse in 2 Timothy 3 where in the last days it gives identifiers of those we should keep away from. The last mentioned being those having 'a form of godliness but denying it's power'. Seems to me there is a great deal of Christianity today, some Anabaptists included, that do not operate in the supernatural power of the Spirit as described in the NT. There are outward appearances of godliness (dress, certain other behaviours) and some are even skeptical of a born again, radical life changing, experience. When I hear Christians coming up with solutions to things in this world that are not rooted in people first having a supernatural relationship with God but rather following certain religious or earthly minded solutions, I think they have wandered from experiencing the NT Gospel that saves us. One can say in church that Jesus is the answer but is this how I live ? Wish I could say I live that way more than I do but I ain't at that level yet.

Very well put Sudsy.

[Josh]

You seemed to skip some of what Paul teaches about it, either you didn't read it entirely which then your not reporting accurately, or you are purposely leaving out some parts dishonestly assuming no one reads it . I understand, have seen this countless times in my life.

I’m not skipping anything. Paul taught any speaking in tongues in the public assembly shall have an interpretation, or else shall not be done publicly at all. My experience in Pentecostal circles is that they simply don’t abide by this.

[Neto]

You seemed to skip some of what Paul teaches about it, either you didn't read it entirely which then your not reporting accurately, or you are purposely leaving out some parts dishonestly assuming no one reads it . I understand, have seen this countless times in my life.

I’m not skipping anything. Paul taught any speaking in tongues in the public assembly shall have an interpretation, or else shall not be done publicly at all. My experience in Pentecostal circles is that they simply don’t abide by this.

I have seen some individuals do it according to the Scripture, but then (in the same service) someone else does it is a way that violates Scriptural teaching. After many bad experiences like that, I didn't keep going to that kind of service anymore, but I never attended a single service where the entire time was conducted in an orderly fashion, according to Scripture. I didn't have a vehicle in those first years, either, and the people who were inviting me to go with them to yet another charismatic congregation's meetings got tired of me pointing out the errors (they were asking me for my response), so they eventually quit asking me to go along.

[Valerie]

You seemed to skip some of what Paul teaches about it, either you didn't read it entirely which then your not reporting accurately, or you are purposely leaving out some parts dishonestly assuming no one reads it . I understand, have seen this countless times in my life.

I’m not skipping anything. Paul taught any speaking in tongues in the public assembly shall have an interpretation, or else shall not be done publicly at all. My experience in Pentecostal circles is that they simply don’t abide by this.

I have seen some individuals do it according to the Scripture, but then (in the same service) someone else does it is a way that violates Scriptural teaching. After many bad experiences like that, I didn't keep going to that kind of service anymore, but I never attended a single service where the entire time was conducted in an orderly fashion, according to Scripture. I didn't have a vehicle in those first years, either, and the people who were inviting me to go with them to yet another charismatic congregation's meetings got tired of me pointing out the errors (they were asking me for my response), so they eventually quit asking me to go along.

I can relate to this as I have been in such services. The congregation we belonged to was probably as close to how we read & understand it in Scripture as can get. We also did have a couple of people with the gift of interpretation. Our pastor was always encouraging us that we pray for discernment (but in all times, not just for this). Our congregation was blessed with the Spiritual gifts in a way it made Apistle Pau l s teaching and description come alive in seeing the benefits. We never saw things done out of order

We left that denomination because of new people entering in that troubled Our spirit- not at our Church- but we thought if this is where things are headed we need to seek elsewhere.

It is hard though when you've witnessed and experienced the authentic, to be around people who remind us of doubting pharisees and dismissing it all- I feel a lack of true understanding throws the baby put with the bath water. This is w hy I asked my initial question- I see a congregation full of former Amish & Mennonites and others who have experienced Baptism of the Holy Dpirit and we see also fruit of the spirit, order, Love, charity, sound doctrine- and so they moved from ultra conservative to resembling to me the early church in some ways (and for Sufsy, they DO lift up Holy hands). We are not cessationists nor can we pretend to be. Thankfully the ancient Orthodox Church taught us gifts did not die out when Apistles died- but they don't put a lot of emphasis on them at all. We so have the emphasis of 1 Corinthians 13.

[Josh]

Valerie, correction: every single Amish and Mennonite person has already experienced baptism of the Holy Spirit, not just attendees of Oasis Tabernacle.

The Bible promises the Holy Spirit will come to every person who believes and is baptised.