Pray to the Father only ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

This thread is to discuss if we are being obedient to Jesus by praying to anyone other than God the Father as Jesus told His disciples to pray. Does this get into the area of choosing what words of obedience are literal and which are not ? Asking to get an Anabaptist answer to this issue.

Something similar is found where Jesus said to baptise (immerse ;) :) ) in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet it would appear that the apostles only baptised in Jesus name. It could then seem that on both cases the apostles were literally dis-obedient as they did address Jesus in prayer.

The disciples asked Jesus how they should pray and Jesus said - "Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” And he said to them, “When you pray, say:" Luke 11:1 and Jesus replied to address the Father.

As an aside, I have often heard Jesus addressed in prayer as 'Dear Lord' or 'Dear Jesus' and sometimes the Holy Spirit addressed as 'Come Holy Spirit' (which is a bit weird as He already has come and lives within the believer) or 'Holy Spirit have your way' or 'Holy Spirit take control' etc. In the NT we have no reference to addressing the Holy Spirit in prayer that I can find. And then there are those (RCs, EOs, and others) who pray to Mary and 'the Saints' which I don't find in the NT in a literal way either.

Well, hopefully that is enough to draw some conversation but I especially would like to inquire of those who believe we need to obey Jesus literally. Did the apostles follow Jesus literally in these areas and if not, is there room for us to also be careful in how we approach literal words of Jesus following ? And I do support looking to follow Jesus literally wherever we should.
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RZehr
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by RZehr »

I don't think it is super important since God is One. Having said that, I pray to God the Father in Jesus name.
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by JimFoxvog »

At least once Jesus says, "ask me".
[bible]john 14,14[/bible]
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Neto
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Neto »

Sudsy wrote:... it would appear that the apostles only baptised in Jesus name. It could then seem that on both cases the apostles were literally dis-obedient as they did address Jesus in prayer.
....
Is the baptizing in Jesus' name what you are referring to as praying to Jesus? If not (and I wouldn't consider that praying to him), I can't think of any case in which (after his death & resurrection) they prayed to Jesus. (I do believe that Jesus is Deity - God, but I do try to always do as he said, making requests of the Father in his name. He also specifically says that the disciples should ask the Father, and he would send the Holy Spirit. (I'm not differing with what you said about the Holy Spirit already being with each believer, but that in their case, at that time, before the coming of the Holy Spirit, they were told to ask the Father, he didn't say Ask ME.)
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Valerie
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Valerie »

Translations make me nuts sometimes- and can make something like this confusing:

John 14:14 KJV

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:14 ESV
14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.
(e)Some manuscripts omit me

Well, all this to confirm that the Trinity is at work in prayer-
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Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote:... it would appear that the apostles only baptised in Jesus name. It could then seem that on both cases the apostles were literally dis-obedient as they did address Jesus in prayer.
....
Is the baptizing in Jesus' name what you are referring to as praying to Jesus? If not (and I wouldn't consider that praying to him), I can't think of any case in which (after his death & resurrection) they prayed to Jesus. (I do believe that Jesus is Deity - God, but I do try to always do as he said, making requests of the Father in his name. He also specifically says that the disciples should ask the Father, and he would send the Holy Spirit. (I'm not differing with what you said about the Holy Spirit already being with each believer, but that in their case, at that time, before the coming of the Holy Spirit, they were told to ask the Father, he didn't say Ask ME.)
Sorry Neto, I didn't explain this well. No, the issue I was trying to get at is one of literal interpretation on what Jesus commanded. In the case of water baptism He said to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet we only read in the NT that they baptised in Jesus name. Not as most of us baptise today. So, were the apostles being dis-obedient when they did not take Jesus literally and baptised instead in Jesus name ? And in the case of who we pray to are we being dis-obedient when we don't pray literally to God the Father but at times pray to God the Son and/or God the Holy Spirit ?

Some are saying this doesn't matter if one believes in the Trinity. OK, so then we are not taking Jesus commands about baptism and who to pray to literally. Instead we look at how the apostles followed Jesus commands (in these cases)
as justification not to take Jesus literally in all His commands.

Regarding, who I address in prayer, I also lean more toward always praying to God the Father in Jesus name in conversations with God. I don't see a shift in who we address from who Jesus prayed to and who He told His disciples to address. Does believing in the Trinity mean it doesn't matter who in the God Head is addressed when in prayer ? And as another aside, does knowing Jesus is the mediator between God and man suggest we pray to Jesus rather than coming to the Father in Jesus name. His name meaning we are reconciled to God through Jesus death and resurrection and through His name we have direct access to the Father ?
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Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:Translations make me nuts sometimes- and can make something like this confusing:

John 14:14 KJV

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:14 ESV
14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.
(e)Some manuscripts omit me

Well, all this to confirm that the Trinity is at work in prayer-
Was Jesus talking about prayer here or a literal asking of Him by his disciples (immediate audience) to do something ?
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Valerie
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Neto wrote:
Sudsy wrote:... it would appear that the apostles only baptised in Jesus name. It could then seem that on both cases the apostles were literally dis-obedient as they did address Jesus in prayer.
....
Is the baptizing in Jesus' name what you are referring to as praying to Jesus? If not (and I wouldn't consider that praying to him), I can't think of any case in which (after his death & resurrection) they prayed to Jesus. (I do believe that Jesus is Deity - God, but I do try to always do as he said, making requests of the Father in his name. He also specifically says that the disciples should ask the Father, and he would send the Holy Spirit. (I'm not differing with what you said about the Holy Spirit already being with each believer, but that in their case, at that time, before the coming of the Holy Spirit, they were told to ask the Father, he didn't say Ask ME.)
Sorry Neto, I didn't explain this well. No, the issue I was trying to get at is one of literal interpretation on what Jesus commanded. In the case of water baptism He said to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and yet we only read in the NT that they baptised in Jesus name. Not as most of us baptise today. So, were the apostles being dis-obedient when they did not take Jesus literally and baptised instead in Jesus name ? And in the case of who we pray to are we being dis-obedient when we don't pray literally to God the Father but at times pray to God the Son and/or God the Holy Spirit ?

Some are saying this doesn't matter if one believes in the Trinity. OK, so then we are not taking Jesus commands about baptism and who to pray to literally. Instead we look at how the apostles followed Jesus commands (in these cases)
as justification not to take Jesus literally in all His commands.

Regarding, who I address in prayer, I also lean more toward always praying to God the Father in Jesus name in conversations with God. I don't see a shift in who we address from who Jesus prayed to and who He told His disciples to address. Does believing in the Trinity mean it doesn't matter who in the God Head is addressed when in prayer ? And as another aside, does knowing Jesus is the mediator between God and man suggest we pray to Jesus rather than coming to the Father in Jesus name. His name meaning we are reconciled to God through Jesus death and resurrection and through His name we have direct access to the Father ?
Sudsy, I think it is because what Peter said, was taken out of context- if you're speaking about when Peter answered in Acts 2: "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"- it 'may' have been error on Peter's part, or maybe the writer's part (of Luke) to not include the Father and the Holy Spirit, and I have seen doctrines built on this to baptize in Jesus' name ONLY. But we have to remember that Jesus said to baptize in all three- The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit- It MAY be that Peter was emphasizing the difference between John's baptism, and Jesus baptism- they were two separate baptisms. Whatever though- I don't think it was disobedience on Peter's part, and I DO know, the early Church baptized in the name of all three. The 'infant' stage of the Church had a lot of things going on before it became more organized and patterns were in place, from what I have read.
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Valerie
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:Translations make me nuts sometimes- and can make something like this confusing:

John 14:14 KJV

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 14:14 ESV
14 If you ask me[e] anything in my name, I will do it.
(e)Some manuscripts omit me

Well, all this to confirm that the Trinity is at work in prayer-
Was Jesus talking about prayer here or a literal asking of Him by his disciples (immediate audience) to do something ?
From what I understand, He was talking about in prayer- consider the passage in context:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Now wouldn't you conclude that this would be referring to prayer? Noting that He is speaking about when He goes to the Father? The footnote in my Bible says:

To pray in Christ's name does not simply mean to attach the phrase "in Jesus' name we pray" to the end of prayers. Rather, to pray in His name means to pray according to His will. Just as an emmisary of a king can only be said to be speaking in the king's name if he says what the king would want him to say, so also we can only be said to be praying in the name of Christ when we pray according to what He wants. The purpose here is not to get God to do our will, but for us to learn to pray properly, according to God's will (Matthew 6:10)
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Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy, I think it is because what Peter said, was taken out of context- if you're speaking about when Peter answered in Acts 2: "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"- it 'may' have been error on Peter's part, or maybe the writer's part (of Luke) to not include the Father and the Holy Spirit, and I have seen doctrines built on this to baptize in Jesus' name ONLY. But we have to remember that Jesus said to baptize in all three- The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit- It MAY be that Peter was emphasizing the difference between John's baptism, and Jesus baptism- they were two separate baptisms. Whatever though- I don't think it was disobedience on Peter's part, and I DO know, the early Church baptized in the name of all three. The 'infant' stage of the Church had a lot of things going on before it became more organized and patterns were in place, from what I have read.
Scriptures where they baptised in Jesus name -

Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12 - But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:16 - for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 - And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Acts 19:5 - On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Scriptures where they were baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit -

None

So, without the traditions found outside of the NT scriptures, one could conclude that the apostles thought when Jesus said to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that they took what Jesus said as that 'name' referred to is the name of 'Jesus'. Of course, this is a primary argument for 'Jesus Only' or UPC Pentecostals.

This brings up the question - if practises formed outside of what we read in the NT scriptures are a more organized patterns of practise for Christians, which do we determine in scripture are in this 'infant stage' ? Do we go with things like pre-baptismal instructions or baptising in cold water or fasting prior to baptism or nude baptisms, etc that we find in early church practise (the Didache) outside of scripture as all Spirit lead practises ?

And on other subjects that Jesus did not refer to, how can we be sure Paul was not speaking in this 'infant stage' also when he talked about, for instance, the head covering, and his arguments for that ?

Just throwing these questions out for consideration when both the apostles and other non-scripture practises by the earlier church do not follow what we read as Jesus instructions in scripture. The apostles regarding baptism as seen in the scriptures above appear to have ignored a literal reading of the Great Commission.
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