Pray to the Father only ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: From what I understand, He was talking about in prayer- consider the passage in context:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Now wouldn't you conclude that this would be referring to prayer? Noting that He is speaking about when He goes to the Father? The footnote in my Bible says:

To pray in Christ's name does not simply mean to attach the phrase "in Jesus' name we pray" to the end of prayers. Rather, to pray in His name means to pray according to His will. Just as an emmisary of a king can only be said to be speaking in the king's name if he says what the king would want him to say, so also we can only be said to be praying in the name of Christ when we pray according to what He wants. The purpose here is not to get God to do our will, but for us to learn to pray properly, according to God's will (Matthew 6:10)
If then in prayer, this, to me, is saying that Jesus will be involved in doing what is asked because He is in the Father and the Father in Him when a request is answered. It doesn't say to address Jesus in prayer and addressing the Father is the proper address as Jesus taught how to pray, imo.

Interesting text if taken alone as it suggests anything we ask in Jesus name will be done. And yet in another scripture it says anything we ask according to His will, He hears us. Some have used this text as commanding God to do their will. Name it and claim it folk.

In one sense we believers are all sons of God and as sons it would seem more logical to me to address our prayers to the Father even though the Trinity makes up the One God.
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cmbl
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by cmbl »

Sudsy wrote:This thread is to discuss if we are being obedient to Jesus by praying to anyone other than God the Father as Jesus told His disciples to pray. Does this get into the area of choosing what words of obedience are literal and which are not ? Asking to get an Anabaptist answer to this issue.
Sudsy wrote:And on other subjects that Jesus did not refer to, how can we be sure Paul was not speaking in this 'infant stage' also when he talked about, for instance, the head covering, and his arguments for that ?
Here we go again... :yawn:
It seems to me that when you start a discussion on modes of prayer, be it "raising holy hands" or "praying in Jesus' name," eventually the non-sequitur of the headcovering appears.
Sudsy wrote:Same old point
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Valerie
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote: From what I understand, He was talking about in prayer- consider the passage in context:
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Now wouldn't you conclude that this would be referring to prayer? Noting that He is speaking about when He goes to the Father? The footnote in my Bible says:

To pray in Christ's name does not simply mean to attach the phrase "in Jesus' name we pray" to the end of prayers. Rather, to pray in His name means to pray according to His will. Just as an emmisary of a king can only be said to be speaking in the king's name if he says what the king would want him to say, so also we can only be said to be praying in the name of Christ when we pray according to what He wants. The purpose here is not to get God to do our will, but for us to learn to pray properly, according to God's will (Matthew 6:10)
If then in prayer, this, to me, is saying that Jesus will be involved in doing what is asked because He is in the Father and the Father in Him when a request is answered. It doesn't say to address Jesus in prayer and addressing the Father is the proper address as Jesus taught how to pray, imo.

Interesting text if taken alone as it suggests anything we ask in Jesus name will be done. And yet in another scripture it says anything we ask according to His will, He hears us. Some have used this text as commanding God to do their will. Name it and claim it folk.

In one sense we believers are all sons of God and as sons it would seem more logical to me to address our prayers to the Father even though the Trinity makes up the One God.
Think about Jesus, when He was praying, as Scripture indicates He would rise very early in the morning to pray to the Father- also, the 40 days He intentionally spent in the wilderness to pray- Jesus wouldn't have been praying to Himself- the Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit always existed working together, as we read in Creation- when God the Son, humbled Himself and became the incarnate Son, fully God, fully man- He walked and taught us how to communicate to the Father, but He now is seated at the right hand of the Father, and they, Father, Son and Holy Spirit area all working together in and through us, not only does the Scripture teach that if we are truly His, the Son is in us, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and that both the Son and the Holy Spirit make intercession for us.

Sudsy you popped in my mind as I was reading in Romans this morning, because Romans 9:29, refers back to Isaiah 1:9- it's interesting as you read Isaiah 1:9 as it mentions the Jews praying to God with outstretched arms- praying with arms lifted was done by the Israelites- and carried into the Church, the Israel of God- same with headcovering- although we don't read about God teaching women to veil, we read throughout the OT that women veiled- this was brought into the Church as well and taught to the Gentiles who converted to Christianity- I realize this practiced has almost disappeared in the last century except for Anabaptists, and Orthodox (Catholics were given permission by the Pope to drop it in 1978) and Orthodox are not faithful to it in every EO church (at least in America & probably Greece) however this was something the Jews, who started the Church, brought with them- many practices of the Church were brought in by their Jewish worship & faith- the only reason we read about it in the NT is because apparently, the Gentile convert women were being somewhat contentious about not wearing it-
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

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More "Oneness Pentecostalism" in the Mennonite Brethren church?
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Bill Rushby
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

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I have lived most of my life as a Conservative Friend, although often functioning as a participant in OO Brethren or |Mennonite churches. For several years we attended Presbyterian [then later, |Methodist] Sunday schools when we could not make the 60+ mile trek to Meeting.

Once at the Methodist Sunday school, I was startled by the teacher's pronouncement that the Holy Spirit is always present and "inside" the Christian. Whatever we say or do is guided by the Holy Spirit, no waiting necessary, no reason to doubt the Spirit's presence; no "Spirit blowing where it listeth." This is not how we as traditional Friends understood the nature and working of the Holy Spirit.

Forget coming to Meeting and waiting for the Spirit's presence and work. As in a Pentecostal church I once attended, the Spirit started with a bang when the believers walked through the door!
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Josh
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Josh »

Wayne in Maine wrote:More "Oneness Pentecostalism" in the Mennonite Brethren church?
Jesus-name-ism can be found outside the walls of your nearest UPC "House of the Lord", unfortunately; I'd actually say excessive focus on Jesus' English-transliterated name (as opposed to a focus on Jesus) is pretty much fossilised in the upc, aljc, and independent Oneness churches I'm around. I caught such a pastor ending a prayer in "the Father's name" the other day. I'm guessing he listens to a lot of Christian radio and it just slipped out.
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Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

cmbl wrote:
Sudsy wrote:This thread is to discuss if we are being obedient to Jesus by praying to anyone other than God the Father as Jesus told His disciples to pray. Does this get into the area of choosing what words of obedience are literal and which are not ? Asking to get an Anabaptist answer to this issue.
Sudsy wrote:And on other subjects that Jesus did not refer to, how can we be sure Paul was not speaking in this 'infant stage' also when he talked about, for instance, the head covering, and his arguments for that ?
Here we go again... :yawn:
It seems to me that when you start a discussion on modes of prayer, be it "raising holy hands" or "praying in Jesus' name," eventually the non-sequitur of the headcovering appears.
Sudsy wrote:Same old point
Well, I could have used other examples but I used the head covering as it is one area that is followed by many Anabaptists quite unique from many non-Anabaptists. The point was simply about which commands are to be followed literally when the apostles, in some cases, did not follow Jesus commands literally. Perhaps you might care to reply to that issue ?
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Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

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Wayne in Maine wrote:More "Oneness Pentecostalism" in the Mennonite Brethren church?
Say what ? I was not supporting "Oneness Pentecostalism" arguments against the Trinity but referring to this as one of those areas where the literal practise of the early church as stated in scripture on how they baptised can be used to support a NC Christian practise even though it is not what Jesus commanded. MBs are Trinitarians and so am I.

I understand your strong views on literal practise to what Jesus said even though some of those beliefs are not the most common Anabaptist beliefs. I do agree though that we should look closely at what Jesus said to see what should be followed literally. I think that is very Anabaptist in suggested practise. In this case. I think scripture supports praying to the Father in Jesus name even though our prayers are to the Triune God.
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Sudsy
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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Think about Jesus, when He was praying, as Scripture indicates He would rise very early in the morning to pray to the Father- also, the 40 days He intentionally spent in the wilderness to pray- Jesus wouldn't have been praying to Himself- the Trinity, Father, Son & Holy Spirit always existed working together, as we read in Creation- when God the Son, humbled Himself and became the incarnate Son, fully God, fully man- He walked and taught us how to communicate to the Father, but He now is seated at the right hand of the Father, and they, Father, Son and Holy Spirit area all working together in and through us, not only does the Scripture teach that if we are truly His, the Son is in us, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and that both the Son and the Holy Spirit make intercession for us.

I agree wholeheartedly. I went through the 'Jesus Only' debate using this many times as I married a UPC minister's daughter.

Sudsy you popped in my mind as I was reading in Romans this morning, because Romans 9:29, refers back to Isaiah 1:9- it's interesting as you read Isaiah 1:9 as it mentions the Jews praying to God with outstretched arms- praying with arms lifted was done by the Israelites- and carried into the Church, the Israel of God- same with headcovering- although we don't read about God teaching women to veil, we read throughout the OT that women veiled- this was brought into the Church as well and taught to the Gentiles who converted to Christianity- I realize this practiced has almost disappeared in the last century except for Anabaptists, and Orthodox (Catholics were given permission by the Pope to drop it in 1978) and Orthodox are not faithful to it in every EO church (at least in America & probably Greece) however this was something the Jews, who started the Church, brought with them- many practices of the Church were brought in by their Jewish worship & faith- the only reason we read about it in the NT is because apparently, the Gentile convert women were being somewhat contentious about not wearing it-

And so in this case (the veiling) we take Paul's arguments and the practise in pre-NT history to support veiling as a NC practise and I personally don't have an issue with that, other than the 'praying with lifted hands' for men was also a command by Paul that also had, as you pointed out, pre-NT historical proof. Again the question is when do we take some commands literally and others not. I take it then that some feel that if Paul would have given additional reasons behind lifting of hands in prayer, then that would be a literal practise for men also ?

This whole area of rightly dividing the word of truth appears quite inconsistent at times and so I bring it up to hear other's opinions.

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Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Hats Off »

How about just praying and continuing instant in prayer. One of our hymns has the line "Prayer is the burden of a sign, unuttered or expressed." We can hardly go wrong in praying sincerely, finishing with "not my will, but yours be done."
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