Pray to the Father only ?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Hats Off wrote:How about just praying and continuing instant in prayer. One of our hymns has the line "Prayer is the burden of a sign, unuttered or expressed." We can hardly go wrong in praying sincerely, finishing with "not my will, but yours be done."
I don't mind moving on to this, so lets talk about praying all the time. Does pray without ceasing mean that in some way we should be in prayer every moment of the day ? Or does it mean that when we ask we should not give up on what we are asking for as God wants our asking and according to the Luke 18 parable our continual asking moves God to answer ?

We know Jesus said we should pray in private (go to your closet) and He also would go away into the mountains to pray alone with the Father. So, was He also praying moment by moment somehow as He went about His daily life ?

I have heard it said that a woman should keep her head covered so she can always be in a state of prayer. Then this would mean a man should be in this same state with his head uncovered, right ? And I'm not trying to open up the head covering debate again. :roll:

And what is being 'instant in prayer' ? Is praying without ceasing a proof of our faith in God that He answers prayer and we won't just give up and take things into our own hands ? I think prayer and faith are strongly related and 'waiting on the Lord' is literally to wait in confident expectation that God will answer our prayers. Actually when scripture asks “I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8) this text is talking about the link of prayer and faith.

Seems to me, prayer today, in what I see, is no longer a travailing for lost souls and a crying out for God in a form of supplication/begging as it was in my youth. I wonder if this is mainly a trend to think we can get along pretty well without bothering God through prayer. I am guilty of this in my own prayer life.

Well, that might get the subject more on the need for prayer.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Bill Rushby wrote:I have lived most of my life as a Conservative Friend, although often functioning as a participant in OO Brethren or |Mennonite churches. For several years we attended Presbyterian [then later, |Methodist] Sunday schools when we could not make the 60+ mile trek to Meeting.

Once at the Methodist Sunday school, I was startled by the teacher's pronouncement that the Holy Spirit is always present and "inside" the Christian. Whatever we say or do is guided by the Holy Spirit, no waiting necessary, no reason to doubt the Spirit's presence; no "Spirit blowing where it listeth." This is not how we as traditional Friends understood the nature and working of the Holy Spirit.

Forget coming to Meeting and waiting for the Spirit's presence and work. As in a Pentecostal church I once attended, the Spirit started with a bang when the believers walked through the door!
Interesting your experience in the Methodist church on the Spirit's guidance. I think there is quite a difference between having the Holy Spirit living within us and being guided by that Spirit. I have never experienced this waiting on the Spirit in a Friends Meeting but I do believe there is a giving control to the Spirit necessary as we come to meet with God. I don't see this as the Holy Spirit coming to the group from somewhere outside the group as in the sense of 'coming', He has come and is now present in each believer. But is He active amongst us within each believer ? Have we turned over control to Him to have His way if He is not at that moment in control ? And a 'waiting' for this to occur sounds to me, like a good and necessary practise to collectively be in His control. In my youth, we would have pre-meeting prayer services to pursue the Spirit's control. Not quite the same as the short little asking that I hear today.

Bill, imo, we need more of this 'waiting' in this world of instant expectations. God does not have to fit into our high speed timings.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23815
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Josh »

Seems to me, prayer today, in what I see, is no longer a travailing for lost souls and a crying out for God in a form of supplication/begging as it was in my youth.
I experience plenty of this in my own life and in those around me. However, it seems prayer is not all that is needed; action is needed to actually act like a follower of Jesus in front of these lost souls.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:
Seems to me, prayer today, in what I see, is no longer a travailing for lost souls and a crying out for God in a form of supplication/begging as it was in my youth.
I experience plenty of this in my own life and in those around me. However, it seems prayer is not all that is needed; action is needed to actually act like a follower of Jesus in front of these lost souls.
Good to hear you are in such a praying environment. I agree that more than prayer is needed to reach the lost and be good ambassadors of the Kingdom. We can pray and not go (as if God does not use us as means in the salvation of others). Or go without prayer (believing our evangelistic techniques are adequate). Or act like a follower of Jesus in some ways but have no real interest for lost souls or prayer.

Do you agree that if we are in a praying mindset (communicating with God in an on-going way) we will go and we will live as ambassadors (representatives of the Kingdom) and we will have Jesus concern for the lost ? In other words a prayer life must be two way. We ask and depend on God and He gives us guidance and power to serve His purposes. Prayer changes things including us.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Bill Rushby
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:01 pm
Affiliation: Conservative Quaker

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Bill Rushby »

I thought you might be interested in how public prayer, called "supplication," occurred in traditional Quaker worship. This account is quoted from a paper I presented at the Mennonite Sociologists & Anthropologists' conference on "ritual" at Hillsdale College in 2004 (?). So far, I haven't submitted the paper for publication.


"Supplication. Another rite, “supplication” or public prayer, especially bespeaks the liturgical character of traditional Quaker worship. Mildred Binns Young (1901-1995) writes graphically of this experience during her childhood in Ohio Yearly Meeting.
[Spoken prayer] was the most solemn form of ministry. The minister
knelt, and then waited while the whole meeting rose to its feet. If any
of the men had kept on their hats in meeting, as some few of the plainest
Friends still did then, they now took them off…Out of the deep hush, the
addressing and supplicating voice would ascend, drawing down the
Presence to hover above our heads...How authentic was the vocative!
How urgent the petition! After the voice ceased and the people sat
down, the silence resumed threefold.
Among the most conservative Friends, the men turned when they rose for prayer, to face the door on their side of the meetinghouse."

The Mildred Young quotation is from her *The Candle, the Lantern, the Daylight*.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Bill Rushby wrote:I thought you might be interested in how public prayer, called "supplication," occurred in traditional Quaker worship. This account is quoted from a paper I presented at the Mennonite Sociologists & Anthropologists' conference on "ritual" at Hillsdale College in 2004 (?). So far, I haven't submitted the paper for publication.


"Supplication. Another rite, “supplication” or public prayer, especially bespeaks the liturgical character of traditional Quaker worship. Mildred Binns Young (1901-1995) writes graphically of this experience during her childhood in Ohio Yearly Meeting.
[Spoken prayer] was the most solemn form of ministry. The minister
knelt, and then waited while the whole meeting rose to its feet. If any
of the men had kept on their hats in meeting, as some few of the plainest
Friends still did then, they now took them off…Out of the deep hush, the
addressing and supplicating voice would ascend, drawing down the
Presence to hover above our heads...How authentic was the vocative!
How urgent the petition! After the voice ceased and the people sat
down, the silence resumed threefold.
Among the most conservative Friends, the men turned when they rose for prayer, to face the door on their side of the meetinghouse."

The Mildred Young quotation is from her *The Candle, the Lantern, the Daylight*.
Thanks Bill. I find the phrase 'drawing down the Presence' somewhat puzzling as if the Presence (which I take to be the Presence of God) is something outside of us that comes down. I see this more as the Presence 'rising up' within each believer as that is where the scripture says He dwells. In Evangelical and other groups I often hear things like 'come Holy Spirit' or 'reach down and touch us' and other phrases that to me, seem to indicate that God is still outside the believer. My understanding of God and His Presence is within the believer and we are to get in-tune or quickened by that Spirit who dwells within us. Thoughts anyone ?
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Bill Rushby
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:01 pm
Affiliation: Conservative Quaker

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Bill Rushby »

Thanks for your response, Sudsy! Approaching this matter phenomenologically (as perceived), rather than theologically (Biblically), my experience is of the Holy Spirit coming to the worshipping body from Beyond, rather than from within. I don't know how to reconcile the two perspectives.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Pray to the Father only ?

Post by Sudsy »

Bill Rushby wrote:Thanks for your response, Sudsy! Approaching this matter phenomenologically (as perceived), rather than theologically (Biblically), my experience is of the Holy Spirit coming to the worshipping body from Beyond, rather than from within. I don't know how to reconcile the two perspectives.
I wonder just what might happen if in our gatherings we just quit talking at God and got quiet and allowed God to speak to us. Silence today is a fearful thing for many in this fast paced culture of constant noise of sorts and emphasis on no dead spots in performance timings.

"And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? 1 Kings 19:11-13 (bolding mine)

Are we listening for that 'still small voice' ? How much of our prayer life is in listening ? Me thinks God is trying to tell me something.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Post Reply