Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
appleman2006
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by appleman2006 »

As I see it not repaying a loan that was always understood to be a loan when you would actually have the means to do so as is suggested in this case is just plain outright stealing. Unless the person has applied for bankruptcy he is literally in the act of stealing.
I think a church should deal with it in the same way they would if a member" borrowed" their neighbour's car and never brought it back.

Declaring legal bankruptcy is another issue entirely.
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temporal1
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by temporal1 »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Chris wrote:Okay, these are all good points. Going off a strict biblical perspective though we are commanded to lend money to those who ask, lend without expecting to be repaid, and not asking for the money back if loaned!

To follow the Bible seems very hard as anybody could come take any bit of money away from another person if taken literally. Were loans in Biblical days TAKEN for WAY different things than today? I could understand that if a brother needed to borrow money for food to lend and not expect repayment. But today people will borrow money for a lot of things, even quasi necessities (I want a bit of a better home or car than the other choice) and then we see them on vacations later!

Are we supposed to lend PERIOD and never expect it back and never ask for it back? The scriptures from a fairly strong viewpoint allude to this.... Need advice definitely. Thanks!
I don't know why we should not take Jesus literally in this case.
If we have the money to lend and do not need it ourselves then why should we not let it go?

If it is used wrongfully, or if the borrower abuses the act of charity on our part the sin is on them not us, and it is a matter for the church to deal with.
Jesus doesn't mention an exception clause for giving (does He?) ..
so, we don't need to fuss with "if our needs" are met .. then we can give .. (?)
a generous spirit doesn't always correlate with a hefty bank account.
(not that i think we disagree on it.)

Chris, there are good responses here, i haven't studied each one as i'd like to.

i sense you are not struggling with what Jesus or scriptures tells us, you have read it.
it's the spirit you are seeking. this is key. 'cause, "the letter kills, but the spirit gives life."
2 Cor 3:6
He has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit.
For the letter kills, but the Spirit produces life.
http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/3-6.htm
in the fullness of my life, i may have experienced every role possible with money, in one small way or another. i have loaned, i have borrowed, i have given, i have taken, or accepted; i have experienced the sting of theft, i'm sure i have have stolen, God forgive me. :(

i have witnessed others experience all these things, with different outcomes.
i have witnessed a few who try to be very hardline on it, legalistic, in some cases.
strangely, these do not have the best outcomes. neither in effectiveness of recovery of loans, or peace of mind about the process.

so, seeking the spirit of Truth means a lot;
another part of it is, attitude ..
2 Cor 9:7
Each person should do as he has decided in his heart--not reluctantly or out of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.
http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/9-7.htm
as Jesus does not want empty prayers, neither does He appreciate "the right acts," with a grudging heart.

it's hurtful, confusing, and disappointing when others behave badly.
we can't control that. we can discuss it with them, and hope for an agreeable outcome. forcing it is another matter.

one memory of my husband, i don't think of often.
unknown to me, a friend asked to borrow several thousand dollars. he was a hard worker, married, but was known to gamble. my husband loaned the money. years passed, i knew nothing.
after my husband's terminal diagnosis, he had to stop working. eventually, he told me about the loan. i didn't know what to say. neither of us thought it was recoverable.
my husband decided to talk with him. i believe for the first time.
to our surprise, he began making monthly payments, in time, he paid the entire sum.

frankly, when i saw him after the loan was paid, he seemed so happy he had done it. it became a happiness between us. he may have benefited more than we did by repaying. the memory gives me a good feeling because of how happy he seemed to be with himself.

i could describe a number of scenarios, each a bit different, and, not all debts have been resolved like that one.

but, as you are seeking direction, think about those two passages. they help me. :)
i will be praying for you to find a good outcome that benefits you and your friend.
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Josh
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by Josh »

My current frustration is people who are reluctant to accept help or won't explain just how bad their situation is, and then a relatively minor problem becomes a very big one.

I think the church needs to have people in it who have dealt with major financial problems: suspended drivers licence, impounds, getting a DUI, being in jail or prison, child support arrears, delinquent taxes. Such people are very well equipped to help a person in need who is facing any of those kind of problems. Let's all pray God brings people with a messy past into our circles to help with these kinds of needs, who truly understand them.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by Bootstrap »

My frustration is when richer people are unwilling to help, so poorer people help with money they dearly need. When the loans don't get repaid, these people are unlikely to ask for help from the people who should have helped in the first place.

I've seen that happen too many times. I was hurt pretty badly by this once, somewhat badly another time. Now I have more money and more discernment ;->

If you lend money you should assume there is a definite chance it cannot be repaid. Discernment is good - in the body, so that the question is not only whether to lend, but who should best lend.
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appleman2006
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by appleman2006 »

I understand the concept of lending money with the expectation that it will not be repaid. When someone is truly destitute that is not even an issue IMO. But what Chris described assuming his assessment is accurate is far from that. In that case it is theft pure and simple.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by Bootstrap »

appleman2006 wrote:I understand the concept of lending money with the expectation that it will not be repaid. When someone is truly destitute that is not even an issue IMO. But what Chris described assuming his assessment is accurate is far from that. In that case it is theft pure and simple.
Let me repeat myself with fewer words.

I think the body as a whole should discern this kind of situation to decide (1) how best to help - which may or may not involve lending or giving money - and (2) if relevant, with whose money. Major sacrifices without discernment are often unwise.

These days, I usually spend time discerning with someone else before doing this kind of thing. Then I know what I'm risking and why, and that it is in God's hands, not just the result of my impulsiveness.
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Hats Off
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by Hats Off »

Bootstrap wrote:My frustration is when richer people are unwilling to help, so poorer people help with money they dearly need. When the loans don't get repaid, these people are unlikely to ask for help from the people who should have helped in the first place.
Signtist's dad told me of how a long time ago, he did not have money to pay his telephone bill. He and my father were friends with similar financial experiences. My father had the cash available at the time so he helped out where most people would not have. He knew what it is like when money does not reach around so he helped. Signtist's dad made the point that it is easier to get help from some one who has little than from some one who is financially well set.
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Hats Off wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:My frustration is when richer people are unwilling to help, so poorer people help with money they dearly need. When the loans don't get repaid, these people are unlikely to ask for help from the people who should have helped in the first place.
Signtist's dad told me of how a long time ago, he did not have money to pay his telephone bill. He and my father were friends with similar financial experiences. My father had the cash available at the time so he helped out where most people would not have. He knew what it is like when money does not reach around so he helped. Signtist's dad made the point that it is easier to get help from some one who has little than from some one who is financially well set.
My observation is that often those with much, who can give, are rich because they don't give, but rather they take advantage of others to become rich. It is another reason why it is so difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, inherent in gaining wealth is oppression of the poor.
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appleman2006
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by appleman2006 »

That characterization of the rich may very well be true. I do however know many wealthy men that have been very very generous in their time. Most people never hear about it.
But I have no idea what that has to do with Chris's initial question. A rich man that refuses to help his neighbor in need or a "poor" man that takes advantage of someone that has helped him out in the past. Seems to me that both might have a heart problem. And I am guessing the entrance door to heaven might be equally small for both.
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temporal1
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Re: Loans to church Brothers and/or Sisters - not being repayed?

Post by temporal1 »

appleman2006 wrote:.. But I have no idea what that has to do with Chris's initial question ..
it would be nice to think Chris found direction here.
i used to think, God hears all our prayers, and answers each one ..
thing is, we don't always understand His message, and/or, we don't want to hear His message.
i continue to believe this.

we can't know, in advance, how God is working in us and through us.
sometimes, or often, we just have to go ahead and live, answers come in process of living, or as a result of living.

as with the example of my husband going to his friend to ask about an old debt .. i'm sure he didn't make a big deal out of it, likely few words were exchanged .. but, whatever it was, the outcome was as good as any we could have imagined or hoped for, for all involved. we didn't know ahead what to do, we had to live through it.

thinking about Chris right now, i would hope he might do similar. just speak to this person, in person, to see what might be worked out. not in anger, just in reality.

there isn't a scriptural example of every single life situation.
this is where we must seek the spirit, which is more than the letter.
if we don't get it right, He is there to lead us out.
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