Who is Your Brother-

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
KingdomBuilder
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by KingdomBuilder »

There is big difference between different "interpretations" and refusing to lay down your human understandings, expectations, and pride enough to see what the Word of God is saying to those walking the narrow way.

I hear the "interpretation" card a LOT (nothing personal, Valerie), and I only buy it on a few issues. I don't give much on many issues- ones that I see are firmly planted in the direct commands of the Lord. I believe we are to be firmly planted in conscience and practice.. Not permissive to those seeking to bear the name of Jesus.
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Valerie
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by Valerie »

KingdomBuilder wrote:There is big difference between different "interpretations" and refusing to lay down your human understandings, expectations, and pride enough to see what the Word of God is saying to those walking the narrow way.

I hear the "interpretation" card a LOT (nothing personal, Valerie), and I only buy it on a few issues. I don't give much on many issues- ones that I see are firmly planted in the direct commands of the Lord. I believe we are to be firmly planted in conscience and practice.. Not permissive to those seeking to bear the name of Jesus.
So do you have an issue with God's command to not kill, and then command Israel to kill? Is that human understanding? Do you take issue to Jesus coming back as a warrior with an army that will pour out wrath on humans? I don't see it as human understanding, I think the reality is, that there is a difference between loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, and serving your country- because Jesus said we will always have wars- whether a Christian should serve or not, I just read in the early church that there were soldiers, and Jesus even used a soldier as an example of faith He did not see in all of Israel, and He did not tell this soldier to repent of being a soldier at all.

So bottom line, an Anabaptist would not consider anyone who is a denomination that interprets the Bible differently on this issue, as 'not a brother'- and that is what I was asking on certain dogmas that would be considered infallible interpretations.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Valerie wrote:So do you have an issue with God's command to not kill, and then command Israel to kill? Is that human understanding?
Not a bit. It's not hard to see that the way God interacted with Israel is different than what we see today. It just is, and it's crooked of some to use such instances as a justification for modern actions.
Do you take issue to Jesus coming back as a warrior with an army that will pour out wrath on humans?

It's imagery...
I think the reality is, that there is a difference between loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, and serving your country
You had a biblical list here until the last addition. Where do you see "serving your country" as scriptural? What country is "mine", truly, as a pilgrim in a foreign land? Patriotism is a sin, and one can't really "serve" without it.
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Josh
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by Josh »

Okay, so in World War II, we had lots of people "serving their country" trying to kill each other.

What would Jesus' commandment to the German or the Serbian or the Italian or the British or the French soldier have been?

"Keep shooting!" or "Love your enemy!"?
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:Do you take issue to Jesus coming back as a warrior with an army that will pour out wrath on humans?
No, but that question is tangential at best.
1. The Son of God can do things that we can't.
2. Songs like "I'm in the Lord's Army" notwithstanding, I'm not convinced that the army in Rev. 19 is made up of the saints, nor that this army actually does any killing.
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Josh
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote:Everyone should know that Jesus cares about the words we use... its not that uncommon to have an understanding that Christians should not have foul mouth speech. The same is not always true about war and non-resistance. Doesn't make it less true, but I would personally be cautious about saying someone who went to war or is going to war is not a Christian. It really depends on if they have been shown the truth and what they chose to do about it.
I have to say that I find it far more outside of God's kingdom to kill people than to use rough language. Jesus used some rough language himself, but he never killed anyone.

It seems we have a very upside-down idea of what God expects, and maybe we've replaced it with what we expect. It doesn't matter to me if someone uses the nicest, cleanest speech (around me), if he has no interest in following & obeying Jesus, that person, unfortunately, isn't a brother in Christ.
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by Hats Off »

Valerie, "if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." (Jesus)

What God did in the Old Testament does not invalidate or contradict Jesus'teaching. You are trying to convince the wrong group of people if you think you can convince us that going to war is the "honourable" Christian thing. We are ambassadors and pilgrims, not subordinate to the leaders of this present worldly kingdom. We represent One who has an eternal kingdom.
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by Soloist »

Josh, I was speaking to common wordly Christian understanding, both language and non-resistance matter. To the worldly Christian, most of them are lied to and in a spirit of love I would call them a brother until they denied the truth of non-resistance. We all do not start at the same place, and myself after I repented did not understand non-resistance until months later. I had served in the military and rejected the whole system as corrupt and evil before I admitted to be a worldly Christian who had rejected our common King, Jesus.
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Valerie
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:Valerie, "if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." (Jesus)

What God did in the Old Testament does not invalidate or contradict Jesus'teaching. You are trying to convince the wrong group of people if you think you can convince us that going to war is the "honourable" Christian thing. We are ambassadors and pilgrims, not subordinate to the leaders of this present worldly kingdom. We represent One who has an eternal kingdom.
I am not trying to convince you of anything, I started this topic to find out if there are things that Anabaptists would see Christians with other interpretations as brothers, or not- I think the question has been answered, thank you-
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Re: Who is Your Brother-

Post by MattY »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Kind of hard to love someone when you're demonizing them and trying to wipe them off the face of the earth, don't you think?
Very true. And this is why Christians are called not to fight in wars or violently resist evil. Properly understood, this will result in Christians at least refusing military combat and serving as noncombatants, if not refusing military service completely and only consenting to alternative service.

As for the question of who is our brother, or how do we relate to Christians who believe differently? I view many who believe differently as fellow believers, and I think most of us probably do, if we read, appreciate, and quote people like Wesley, Moody, Spurgeon, Max Lucado, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Beth Moore, etc., etc. What about those who actually serve or have served in the military? We could say we'll just leave it up to God. I agree with that, but that doesn't mean that I feel completely ambivalent or 50/50 about it, or that I don't lean a particular way. Many of them have good testimonies and godly lives outside of that particular issue. I lean toward accepting their testimony and letting God figure out how to handle the parts I don't understand. That doesn't mean we should fellowship with them in the same church or denomination - the difference in belief and practice is significant, and I wouldn't want an Anabaptist church to accept them as members. But we can probably work with them in some para-church missions or relief efforts. CAM has partnered with other organizations in the Middle East, for example. And Amish and Mennonites often fill shoeboxes for Operation Christmas Child for Samaritan's Purse.

As for the Old Testament - Humans bear the image of God, and therefore life is sacred. This can be seen in the Old Testament, so there is perhaps a foundation laid, or a foreshadowing of the transition to the higher way that was to come. And we can see nonresistance typified in Isaac, Joseph, and the Levites. This can help people - it helped me - to see the consistency and progress of God's revelation through Scripture. But it is probably a bad idea to use the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" as a commandment against war, law enforcement, or the death penalty. And it is extremely important to understand that warfare in the Old Testament was not something that God "winked at" or that he was just going along with the times. Arguments like these will probably confuse some people and make them reject nonresistance.

I'll add some quotes that I found helpful in the next comment.
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