The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Ernie wrote:Here is what Bercot has to say about the Pilgrim Church...

"...the phrase "Pilgrim Church" really has no historic meaning. It was a term coined by Broadbent in his book The Pilgrim Church. Broadbent was a Baptist. So the groups that he calls "the Pilgrim Church" don't necessarily hold to kingdom values.
Baptists include themselves as part of the Pilgrim Church, as do the Plymouth brethren. Yet, their values are quite different than ours. In the end, "Pilgrim Church values" simply mean non-Catholic values."
Foreword by David Hunt is a dead giveaway. Actually both Verdun and Broadbent seem to be of Plymouth Brethren alignment. I am mentally trying to sort out the ancient origin verses Zurich origin thing.

J.M.
Unless I'm mistaken, Verduin remained Reformed in his ecclesiology. Am I incorrect in this?
Hmmmmm..........

As I study more, his "alignment" is less and less clear. There is an article written about him in MQR. I am obtaining a copy now and will let you know as soon as I have a chance to read it, and digest the info. When someone can get an article like this published:

Reta Halteman Finger
Torn Between Two Faiths? American Calvinist Leonard Verduin’s Anabaptist-Mennonite Connection

It MUST be complicated. Will let you know.

J.M.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Foreword by David Hunt is a dead giveaway. Actually both Verdun and Broadbent seem to be of Plymouth Brethren alignment. I am mentally trying to sort out the ancient origin verses Zurich origin thing.

J.M.
Unless I'm mistaken, Verduin remained Reformed in his ecclesiology. Am I incorrect in this?
Hmmmmm..........

As I study more, his "alignment" is less and less clear. There is an article written about him in MQR. I am obtaining a copy now and will let you know as soon as I have a chance to read it, and digest the info. When someone can get an article like this published:

Reta Halteman Finger
Torn Between Two Faiths? American Calvinist Leonard Verduin’s Anabaptist-Mennonite Connection

It MUST be complicated. Will let you know.

J.M.
Did you ever find anything out, JM?
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote: Unless I'm mistaken, Verduin remained Reformed in his ecclesiology. Am I incorrect in this?
Hmmmmm..........

As I study more, his "alignment" is less and less clear. There is an article written about him in MQR. I am obtaining a copy now and will let you know as soon as I have a chance to read it, and digest the info. When someone can get an article like this published:

Reta Halteman Finger
Torn Between Two Faiths? American Calvinist Leonard Verduin’s Anabaptist-Mennonite Connection

It MUST be complicated. Will let you know.

J.M.
Did you ever find anything out, JM?
Yes, actually he never left the reformed church, but seemed to be VERY pro mennonite. He is really an enigma. How could he be writing the kind of things he wrote in "The Reformers and their Stepchildren" and still remain reformed?

So yes, you are entirely correct, he remained reformed. You are not mistaken. I suggest you get the article, it is fascinating.

My apologies for not getting back to you until you jogged my brain. It needs a reboot from time to time.
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lesterb
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by lesterb »

JM, did you ever get hold of the book that Ernie recommended in the beginning of this thread? I've always been a bit leery of Broadbent's book because of the immense job it would be to find all of that source material. It seems odd that he can be that certain of so many things no one else seems to know about.

I'd like to have a second opinion on some of that and I thought maybe Kennedy's book would provide that?

The next book I'm planning to write for TGS is a story that starts in 284 (the year Diocletian was crowned emperor) and tells the story of the deception of the church during the 4th century. It is a very interesting period of history, and takes the church from being the persecuted church to being the persecuting church.

[If you watch my blog, you might see further details seeping through the cracks this fall...]
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Lester, if you refer to Kennedy's Torch of the Testimony, I have it as well, and while an equally fascinating companion read, it also seems equally lacking in specific documentation.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

lesterb wrote:JM, did you ever get hold of the book that Ernie recommended in the beginning of this thread? I've always been a bit leery of Broadbent's book because of the immense job it would be to find all of that source material. It seems odd that he can be that certain of so many things no one else seems to know about.

I'd like to have a second opinion on some of that and I thought maybe Kennedy's book would provide that?

The next book I'm planning to write for TGS is a story that starts in 284 (the year Diocletian was crowned emperor) and tells the story of the deception of the church during the 4th century. It is a very interesting period of history, and takes the church from being the persecuted church to being the persecuting church.

[If you watch my blog, you might see further details seeping through the cracks this fall...]
Yes, I have a copy of Kennedy, but I too have been up to my ears. I have been teaching at the Chinese fellowship more than usual, and they expect you to go an hour to an hour and a half! I am slogging through it. I will let you know what I think when I finish.

That sounds like an interesting project.

J.M.
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Ernie
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Ernie »

Wade wrote:I believe Peter Hoover was very honest in, "The Secret of the Strength." - That is a good read.
Here is one review of Secret of the Strength by Bercot...
I have been asked to give my assessment of the book. The Secret of the Strength. The thesis of the book is that what gave the 16th century Anabaptists their devotion and fiery zeal was their personal focus on Jesus Christ, trying to follow Him in all that they did. The book warmly praises the 16th century Anabaptists while chiding 20th century Mennonites and Amish (who I will refer to as the “plain people”) for many of their attitudes and spiritual deficiencies. I’m sure that this hasn’t settled well with the plain people. Yet, the purpose of the book isn’t to criticize them for criticisms sake, but to challenge them to recapture the love and personal devotion to Christ the Anabaptists once had. Of course, no group ever enjoys being criticized, but I think it would be a serious mistake for the plain people to close their ears to such critiques. Groups that become immune to self-criticism invariably wander far from God.
Peter’s book doesn’t purport to be a balanced analysis of today’s plain people. It was written to provoke the plain people to take an honest look at their spiritual state. I’m sure that Peter would agree that there are many things praiseworthy about today’s plain people that he doesn’t mention.
When first reading the book, I couldn’t help but think of some of the twists of history that Peter doesn’t address. For example, he criticizes (I think rightfully) the second generation of Anabaptists for turning on one another and fragmenting into exclusive groups. In turn, he praises the groups that were freer in their expressions and church memberships. However, it is the descendents of the exclusive groups-like the Amish-who have primarily survived and preserved Anabaptist beliefs. The freer groups disappeared long ago.
So if there is any weakness in the book, I would say it doesn’t completely tell the other side of the story. (Again, it doesn’t purport to be a balanced look at today’s plain people.) If the plain people dropped those rules of theirs that are extra-biblical and focused solely on Christ, I think we might see some tremendous spiritual revival in their ranks-for a generation. After a few generations, however, they would probably be gone, just like the freer Anabaptist groups of the 16th century. That’s what makes the matter so complicated. There are no easy solutions.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Hats Off
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Hats Off »

So, in conclusion, it is the "bad" things we do that allow us to maintain the good. If we become more open and inclusive, we become a group that no longer interests people, while we also lose out. I think we have concluded for some time now that the church that tries to be all things to all people is actually little good for anyone.
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Wade
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Wade »

Hats Off wrote:So, in conclusion, it is the "bad" things we do that allow us to maintain the good. If we become more open and inclusive, we become a group that no longer interests people, while we also lose out. I think we have concluded for some time now that the church that tries to be all things to all people is actually little good for anyone.
And that's why we give up on being accepted. However, I doubt all my children will be as intentional or find fellowship or possibly spouses worth while elsewhere and it sure would be nice for them to have a chance.
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Josh
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:
Hats Off wrote:So, in conclusion, it is the "bad" things we do that allow us to maintain the good. If we become more open and inclusive, we become a group that no longer interests people, while we also lose out. I think we have concluded for some time now that the church that tries to be all things to all people is actually little good for anyone.
And that's why we give up on being accepted. However, I doubt all my children will be as intentional or find fellowship or possibly spouses worth while elsewhere and it sure would be nice for them to have a chance.
Wade, I have yet to hear a qualified reason why you would give up on being accepted.
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