The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Ernie wrote:Here is what Bercot has to say about the Pilgrim Church...

"...the phrase "Pilgrim Church" really has no historic meaning. It was a term coined by Broadbent in his book The Pilgrim Church. Broadbent was a Baptist. So the groups that he calls "the Pilgrim Church" don't necessarily hold to kingdom values.
Baptists include themselves as part of the Pilgrim Church, as do the Plymouth brethren. Yet, their values are quite different than ours. In the end, "Pilgrim Church values" simply mean non-Catholic values."
Foreword by David Hunt is a dead giveaway. Actually both Verdun and Broadbent seem to be of Plymouth Brethren alignment. I am mentally trying to sort out the ancient origin verses Zurich origin thing.

J.M.
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lesterb
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by lesterb »

Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Ernie wrote:Here is what Bercot has to say about the Pilgrim Church...

"...the phrase "Pilgrim Church" really has no historic meaning. It was a term coined by Broadbent in his book The Pilgrim Church. Broadbent was a Baptist. So the groups that he calls "the Pilgrim Church" don't necessarily hold to kingdom values.
Baptists include themselves as part of the Pilgrim Church, as do the Plymouth brethren. Yet, their values are quite different than ours. In the end, "Pilgrim Church values" simply mean non-Catholic values."
Foreword by David Hunt is a dead giveaway. Actually both Verdun and Broadbent seem to be of Plymouth Brethren alignment. I am mentally trying to sort out the ancient origin verses Zurich origin thing.

J.M.
I'm a bit hesitant about Broadbent. It seems like he's trying to establish an alternative apostolic succession. Plus, he either had access to sources that no one else did, or he's reading between the lines a lot. I prefer Verduin because I think he's more accurate in his approach to history. I think the conservative Anabaptists place to much weight on Broadbent.

As far as the ancient origin vs Zurich origin, I think that the truth is in between somewhere. I feel that Anabaptism was a fresh outburst of the Spirit. That happened in the Waldensian revival as well, and on a smaller level in various other places and times. But there were a lot of underground influences drifting around Europe during the Dark Ages. For instance, the Brethren of the Common Life, though they stayed within Catholicism, did a lot to promote both education and spirituality, and even in producing the Bible in the vernacular. Erasmus was a product of this movement.

In the Netherlands you had the conventicles - weekly Bible studies totally out of the control of the Catholic Church. Europe was in a spiritual turmoil, and kept heating up underground until the pot finally boiled over.

So both origin theories tend to be over simplified.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

lesterb wrote: I'm a bit hesitant about Broadbent. It seems like he's trying to establish an alternative apostolic succession.
Baptists tend to try to do this. I remember one training union teacher try to suggest that the origin of the baptist church was John the Baptist! Primitive and regular baptists really get into this. I pretty much dismiss this.
lesterb wrote:Plus, he either had access to sources that no one else did, or he's reading between the lines a lot.
Not really good at footnoting as well. For an old school type that is apt to try to look up his sources that makes things tough.[/quote]
lesterb wrote:I prefer Verduin because I think he's more accurate in his approach to history. I think the conservative Anabaptists place to much weight on Broadbent.
Have already read Verdun. Wife read it as soon as I was finished. Well documented, through, and he seems to draw his conclusions from the research, not the other way around. But to be fully informed, I likely need to read Broadbent as well.[/quote]
lesterb wrote:As far as the ancient origin vs Zurich origin, I think that the truth is in between somewhere. I feel that Anabaptism was a fresh outburst of the Spirit. That happened in the Waldensian revival as well, and on a smaller level in various other places and times. But there were a lot of underground influences drifting around Europe during the Dark Ages. For instance, the Brethren of the Common Life, though they stayed within Catholicism, did a lot to promote both education and spirituality, and even in producing the Bible in the vernacular. Erasmus was a product of this movement.

In the Netherlands you had the conventicles - weekly Bible studies totally out of the control of the Catholic Church. Europe was in a spiritual turmoil, and kept heating up underground until the pot finally boiled over.
So both origin theories tend to be over simplified.


Agree. The ideas were out there for a long time, and you would expect that if one reads the Bible and seeks to obey, the would be led to many of the same conclusions. My take on why Anabaptism finally succeeded in establishing a lasting movement in the 16th century was a combination of the printing press, which enabled their ideas to be spread more widely, the magisterial reformation, which both disrupted the ironclad control that medieval catholicism had on society and the strengthening of the independent cities. All of these provided the "space" for the movement to develop and gain momentum. Lastly, the beginning of the settlement of north america gave refuge where the movement could not be stamped out or co-opted as so many others had in the past.

I just wish I could read German, my limit is the words that are likely to appear in a circuit diagram. (I am in the process of reforming a blaupunkt table radio...got the electronics working!)

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Josh »

Landmarkism is, as far as I can tell, a relatively recent "innovation". The early Anabaptists didn't seem too focused on proving an unbroken church lineage, but were content to try to work within the Catholic Church to call the people there to restore apostolic teaching. There were enough former Catholic priests that nobody really worried a lot about Apostolic succession either.

(If anyone is worried about it today there are some Methodists and Anglicans with full documentation who are willing to ordain anyone who asks, which to me is proof Apostolic succession is not some magic silver bullet.)
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lesterb
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by lesterb »

Josh wrote:Landmarkism is, as far as I can tell, a relatively recent "innovation". The early Anabaptists didn't seem too focused on proving an unbroken church lineage, but were content to try to work within the Catholic Church to call the people there to restore apostolic teaching. There were enough former Catholic priests that nobody really worried a lot about Apostolic succession either.

(If anyone is worried about it today there are some Methodists and Anglicans with full documentation who are willing to ordain anyone who asks, which to me is proof Apostolic succession is not some magic silver bullet.)
Do your Holdeman friends talk about apostolic succession?
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Wade
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Wade »

After seeing much church turmoil in an Mennonite setting. And being rejected by another because of not obeying something that was outside my control to submit to - what Broadbent does is give newcomers some hope that there are some people through history and out their now that are really guided by the Spirit and contain the passion of Christ coupled with His compassion for fellow pilgrims that have left all of their old life behind and come together with love one to another, moving in a way that is outside of human logic, ideologies, and denominations that think they have been doing it right...

It cut the line for me that there is no visible church that everyone in it is fully committed but there are usually a few visible people within some denominations. Because it is few that are humble things usually go wrong eventually as a whole.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - Jesus
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Josh
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Josh »

lesterb wrote:
Josh wrote:Landmarkism is, as far as I can tell, a relatively recent "innovation". The early Anabaptists didn't seem too focused on proving an unbroken church lineage, but were content to try to work within the Catholic Church to call the people there to restore apostolic teaching. There were enough former Catholic priests that nobody really worried a lot about Apostolic succession either.

(If anyone is worried about it today there are some Methodists and Anglicans with full documentation who are willing to ordain anyone who asks, which to me is proof Apostolic succession is not some magic silver bullet.)
Do your Holdeman friends talk about apostolic succession?
Doesn't seem to be much of a thing anymore, although I think it used to be.

The perspective I hear now is that what makes a "True Church" is doing the right things, including associating with other "true churches" and disciplining/expelling the ungodly.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Josh wrote:Landmarkism is, as far as I can tell, a relatively recent "innovation". The early Anabaptists didn't seem too focused on proving an unbroken church lineage, but were content to try to work within the Catholic Church to call the people there to restore apostolic teaching. There were enough former Catholic priests that nobody really worried a lot about Apostolic succession either.

(If anyone is worried about it today there are some Methodists and Anglicans with full documentation who are willing to ordain anyone who asks, which to me is proof Apostolic succession is not some magic silver bullet.)
Do your Holdeman friends talk about apostolic succession?
Doesn't seem to be much of a thing anymore, although I think it used to be.

The perspective I hear now is that what makes a "True Church" is doing the right things, including associating with other "true churches" and disciplining/expelling the ungodly.

There is a strong similarity between Landmarkian views of the church to what I understand to be COGICM views. Landmark Baptists deny the existence of the universal, invisible church. Most other christians identify this as the true church. COGICM seems to deny the universal, invisible church as the true church and instead believe that the true church is the sum of COGICM churches. Quite similar to Landmark views if you ask me.

Josh, am I missing something here?

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Josh »

Cogicm has a perspective of both an invisible church (born again believers who are nonetheless in churches that are apostate or headed towards apostasy) plus a visible true church (composed of believers who have set safeguards up against apostasy and who disicipline and excommunicate errant members). There is a degree of Landmarkism in the belief that both such types of churches have always existed.

They do not use the term "invisible church", which is a term that arose in Reformed circles. Before then the idea anyone would be a true believer but stay in an apostate church was ridiculous.
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Re: The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Broadbent was not original in proposing an underground apostolic lineage of churches. I don't recall the author, but there was a German scholar in the 19th century on who proposed the same thing and who outlined the historic connectivity of these different groups. John Horsch accepted the connection of the Waldensians to the Anabaptist as outlined in this work, but later scholars disputed the connection, simply by pointing to the fact that the Waldensians had died out entirely in the regions where supposedly they have contacted and influenced the first generation of Anabaptists.

What is more important is to consider the real diversity of beliefs and practices of the groups Broadbent (and others) have tried to link together. They were not all "Baptist" in theology or "Anabaptist" in practice.
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