The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

[Judas Maccabeus]

Apostle Thomas is the one who brought Christianity originally to India- wonder what he would think of the 'universal' church now?

With the number of Christians in south India now, I would think he would be loving' it.

Seriously, at least in the Gulf, they fellowship with each other routinely, and consider each other believers. When attendance is down during the summer, they meet together, everyone from Mar Toma to the Pentecostals. Seriously, I would not know if they were speaking in tongues or not.

J.M.

[Valerie]

Apostle Thomas is the one who brought Christianity originally to India- wonder what he would think of the 'universal' church now?

With the number of Christians in south India now, I would think he would be loving' it.

Seriously, at least in the Gulf, they fellowship with each other routinely, and consider each other believers. When attendance is down during the summer, they meet together, everyone from Mar Toma to the Pentecostals. Seriously, I would not know if they were speaking in tongues or not.

J.M.

When we consider this passage, then can we assume we who at least believe this much, are one?

1 John 4King James Version (KJV)

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could set our differences aside & narrowed it down to this? Or is that unrealistic. In areas where there is severe persecution, I understand this is happening- denominational walls are falling.

[Valerie]

Apostle Thomas is the one who brought Christianity originally to India- wonder what he would think of the 'universal' church now? Why would pagans there really feel like there is 'one' Church, and turned to Christ?

That's a good question; they have been in schism since AD 451 (or, in their view, Rome and Constantinople have been schism from them since AD 451). Regardless of that, many in Kerala have turned to the church and Christ anyway, despite all these schisms.

If One True Visible Church thinking and teaching really excites you, I invite you to come to services at the church of God in Christ, Mennonite any evening or morning on a Sunday. You will find lots of people who are very sure they are definitely the one church and are quite hopeful about all the other born again people out there eventually joining them.

Well this is the issue I have- most people in the Anabaptist world seems to think the Church 'immediately' (almost) fell away and became apostate and there was no longer a 'visible' church. I think that speaks very low of what Jesus promised, and of the Holy Spirit that was deposited at Pentecost (Pentecost Sunday was yesterday, the birthday of the Church). When the Church became the Israel of God according to Apostle Paul, why would it be so hidden, so obscure? When Israel was God's Church of the Old Testament, the whole world knew about Israel, and their God- if the Apostles were taking the Gospel to the entire world to convert it, reconciling those which had no hope before, to God, why would we assume it to be an invisible Church, only this small remnant throughout this Church age? I just cannot see it that way- it speaks very weak of the Holy Spirit. IF groups came up against the established Church, where were they when the Church canonized the Holy Scriptures? It's very perplexing to me to hold that view that just because someone gathered followings after themselves against the Church, that God handed the Church over to them- Israel of the OT was never a perfect Church- but God didn't discard them, and we are grafted into them- as Jesus said, Salvation is of the Jews- so why would we think that just because the New Testament Church had issues, that God discarded them?

[Josh]

When we consider this passage, then can we assume we who at least believe this much, are one?

1 John 4King James Version (KJV)

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could set our differences aside & narrowed it down to this? Or is that unrealistic. In areas where there is severe persecution, I understand this is happening- denominational walls are falling.

Sure - of course, there are people who claim the above who fully affirm homosexuality, so if the above appeals to you, expect to see that.

I think the books of John also say quite a bit about sin and about the behaviour of those who claim to be followers of Jesus but are actually not. Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is the beginning of following Jesus, but not the end. The rest of confessing it is that your life changes.

[ken_sylvania]

Well this is the issue I have- most people in the Anabaptist world seems to think the Church 'immediately' (almost) fell away and became apostate and there was no longer a 'visible' church.

That's interesting. If I have ever come across that idea, it has certainly not been very often. The Mennonites that I am familiar with would believe very strongly that there has always been a vibrant "visible" church. There have been various times throughout history when the true church has been persecuted by the false church, particularly as that false church co-opted the power of the state to push its agenda, but there has always been a visible church that has been actually following God.

I think that speaks very low of what Jesus promised, and of the Holy Spirit that was deposited at Pentecost (Pentecost Sunday was yesterday, the birthday of the Church). When the Church became the Israel of God according to Apostle Paul, why would it be so hidden, so obscure? When Israel was God's Church of the Old Testament, the whole world knew about Israel, and their God- if the Apostles were taking the Gospel to the entire world to convert it, reconciling those which had no hope before, to God, why would we assume it to be an invisible Church, only this small remnant throughout this Church age? I just cannot see it that way- it speaks very weak of the Holy Spirit. IF groups came up against the established Church, where were they when the Church canonized the Holy Scriptures? It's very perplexing to me to hold that view that just because someone gathered followings after themselves against the Church, that God handed the Church over to them- Israel of the OT was never a perfect Church- but God didn't discard them, and we are grafted into them- as Jesus said, Salvation is of the Jews- so why would we think that just because the New Testament Church had issues, that God discarded them?

It is repulsive to me to think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church of the middle ages as being the true church of God. The wickedness of some of their leaders in the highest positions is no secret, and the cruelty that they inflicted on those who disagreed with them shows that were "of their father, the devil." When a group of people walks away from God, they no longer have a valid claim to be "the Church."

[Valerie]

When we consider this passage, then can we assume we who at least believe this much, are one?

1 John 4King James Version (KJV)

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could set our differences aside & narrowed it down to this? Or is that unrealistic. In areas where there is severe persecution, I understand this is happening- denominational walls are falling.

Sure - of course, there are people who claim the above who fully affirm homosexuality, so if the above appeals to you, expect to see that.

I think the books of John also say quite a bit about sin and about the behaviour of those who claim to be followers of Jesus but are actually not. Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is the beginning of following Jesus, but not the end. The rest of confessing it is that your life changes.

Exactly- yet Apostle John said it- wonder why-

[Judas Maccabeus]

Well this is the issue I have- most people in the Anabaptist world seems to think the Church 'immediately' (almost) fell away and became apostate and there was no longer a 'visible' church.

That's interesting. If I have ever come across that idea, it has certainly not been very often. The Mennonites that I am familiar with would believe very strongly that there has always been a vibrant "visible" church. There have been various times throughout history when the true church has been persecuted by the false church, particularly as that false church co-opted the power of the state to push its agenda, but there has always been a visible church that has been actually following God.

I think that speaks very low of what Jesus promised, and of the Holy Spirit that was deposited at Pentecost (Pentecost Sunday was yesterday, the birthday of the Church). When the Church became the Israel of God according to Apostle Paul, why would it be so hidden, so obscure? When Israel was God's Church of the Old Testament, the whole world knew about Israel, and their God- if the Apostles were taking the Gospel to the entire world to convert it, reconciling those which had no hope before, to God, why would we assume it to be an invisible Church, only this small remnant throughout this Church age? I just cannot see it that way- it speaks very weak of the Holy Spirit. IF groups came up against the established Church, where were they when the Church canonized the Holy Scriptures? It's very perplexing to me to hold that view that just because someone gathered followings after themselves against the Church, that God handed the Church over to them- Israel of the OT was never a perfect Church- but God didn't discard them, and we are grafted into them- as Jesus said, Salvation is of the Jews- so why would we think that just because the New Testament Church had issues, that God discarded them?

It is repulsive to me to think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church of the middle ages as being the true church of God. The wickedness of some of their leaders in the highest positions is no secret, and the cruelty that they inflicted on those who disagreed with them shows that were "of their father, the devil." When a group of people walks away from God, they no longer have a valid claim to be "the Church."

That exactly is Verdun's thesis (The reformers and their stepchildren) and I suspect it is Broadbent's as well.

By behavior the institutional RCC and EO church CANNOT be the the true church, so we must look to those who they persecuted .

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Apostle Thomas is the one who brought Christianity originally to India- wonder what he would think of the 'universal' church now? Why would pagans there really feel like there is 'one' Church, and turned to Christ?

That's a good question; they have been in schism since AD 451 (or, in their view, Rome and Constantinople have been schism from them since AD 451). Regardless of that, many in Kerala have turned to the church and Christ anyway, despite all these schisms.

If One True Visible Church thinking and teaching really excites you, I invite you to come to services at the church of God in Christ, Mennonite any evening or morning on a Sunday. You will find lots of people who are very sure they are definitely the one church and are quite hopeful about all the other born again people out there eventually joining them.

Well this is the issue I have- most people in the Anabaptist world seems to think the Church 'immediately' (almost) fell away and became apostate and there was no longer a 'visible' church. I think that speaks very low of what Jesus promised, and of the Holy Spirit that was deposited at Pentecost (Pentecost Sunday was yesterday, the birthday of the Church). When the Church became the Israel of God according to Apostle Paul, why would it be so hidden, so obscure? When Israel was God's Church of the Old Testament, the whole world knew about Israel, and their God- if the Apostles were taking the Gospel to the entire world to convert it, reconciling those which had no hope before, to God, why would we assume it to be an invisible Church, only this small remnant throughout this Church age? I just cannot see it that way- it speaks very weak of the Holy Spirit. IF groups came up against the established Church, where were they when the Church canonized the Holy Scriptures? It's very perplexing to me to hold that view that just because someone gathered followings after themselves against the Church, that God handed the Church over to them- Israel of the OT was never a perfect Church- but God didn't discard them, and we are grafted into them- as Jesus said, Salvation is of the Jews- so why would we think that just because the New Testament Church had issues, that God discarded them?

Correction. The church did not canonize the scripture, God did. There was simply universal recognition as to what God did, after a rather brief process.

Show me an action where a council of the church canonized the scripture....you can't.

J.M.

[silentreader]

When we consider this passage, then can we assume we who at least believe this much, are one?

1 John 4King James Version (KJV)

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could set our differences aside & narrowed it down to this? Or is that unrealistic. In areas where there is severe persecution, I understand this is happening- denominational walls are falling.

Sure - of course, there are people who claim the above who fully affirm homosexuality, so if the above appeals to you, expect to see that.

I think the books of John also say quite a bit about sin and about the behaviour of those who claim to be followers of Jesus but are actually not. Confessing that Jesus is the Christ is the beginning of following Jesus, but not the end. The rest of confessing it is that your life changes.

Exactly- yet Apostle John said it- wonder why-

If I'm not mistaken he was dealing with a particular heresy concerning the humanity/deity of Jesus, and wasn't necessary speaking in general terms.

[Valerie]

Well this is the issue I have- most people in the Anabaptist world seems to think the Church 'immediately' (almost) fell away and became apostate and there was no longer a 'visible' church.

That's interesting. If I have ever come across that idea, it has certainly not been very often. The Mennonites that I am familiar with would believe very strongly that there has always been a vibrant "visible" church. There have been various times throughout history when the true church has been persecuted by the false church, particularly as that false church co-opted the power of the state to push its agenda, but there has always been a visible church that has been actually following God.

I think that speaks very low of what Jesus promised, and of the Holy Spirit that was deposited at Pentecost (Pentecost Sunday was yesterday, the birthday of the Church). When the Church became the Israel of God according to Apostle Paul, why would it be so hidden, so obscure? When Israel was God's Church of the Old Testament, the whole world knew about Israel, and their God- if the Apostles were taking the Gospel to the entire world to convert it, reconciling those which had no hope before, to God, why would we assume it to be an invisible Church, only this small remnant throughout this Church age? I just cannot see it that way- it speaks very weak of the Holy Spirit. IF groups came up against the established Church, where were they when the Church canonized the Holy Scriptures? It's very perplexing to me to hold that view that just because someone gathered followings after themselves against the Church, that God handed the Church over to them- Israel of the OT was never a perfect Church- but God didn't discard them, and we are grafted into them- as Jesus said, Salvation is of the Jews- so why would we think that just because the New Testament Church had issues, that God discarded them?

It is repulsive to me to think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church of the middle ages as being the true church of God. The wickedness of some of their leaders in the highest positions is no secret, and the cruelty that they inflicted on those who disagreed with them shows that were "of their father, the devil." When a group of people walks away from God, they no longer have a valid claim to be "the Church."

I don't know Ken, because all through Israel's history, there were wicked leaders and good leaders, but they were always Israel- and within Israel, there were a remnant, and even with their wicked history and God's warnings, & punishments, He didn't cast them off & make someone else His Church- would He handle His Church in the New Covenant, any different if there were 'some' leaders who were not right, they were still the Church? Are you suggesting entire congregations were to blame if they had a wicked leader? I don't know this part of church history at all- I do know many who are in these churches that are very sincere followers of Christ, and so they have made it through and still going strong and to say they are not the Church because of some-would be like saying Israel wasn't Israel because of some of their leaders blaming 'all' the people because of 'some' of the people- I am trying to understand how God would be seeing all this, not my personal opinion- He had an organized body from the beginning of Pentecost- and He gave some to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors & Teachers (Ephesians 4:11) Did He raise up a prophet to discard the established Church? It became a 'worldwide' Church, for the first time in history- growing, developing, etc- I don't read in any of the prophecies regarding the New Covenant & New Israel of God, where He would at some point, start it over again and again with a variety of different understandings of how His Church should be organized- maybe He gave a lot of freedom in this area-again I lack the knowledge of history to see if the entire church became corrupt- or if they were going to persevere as Israel did. Even when Christ came, there remained Israel that we were grafted into, in spite of the fact there were some pretty bad days and years, for Israel- I do know, He is longsuffering. Hierarchy, seemed necessary and we see it starting in the New Testament, in the infant days of the Church- to keep such a worldwide body in the Unity that Christ was emphasizing seemed there had to be some type of hierarchy to keep it "One" and on the same page as it grew & matured- (I never used to think about things like this, just was a content lil' church goer happy in my own denomination for decades). Probably because I do know of so many faithful in the established Church- i have a hard time agreeing that God gave up on them and started over. But if He did, it seems there would be an obvious "oneness" about the new Church too- but we don't see that out of the Reformation either.