Church Service is Boring.... sorry

[Chris]

I won't be specific but I'll speak of the industry.

Lawsuits when Septic systems / driveways / excavation work goes unpaid for (I know of MANY). Liens also placed on properties and fought in court if the property owner tries to legally remove lien. Lawsuits and liens on construction failure to pay (I know of 3) . Shed Rent to Own company owners suing customers who won't let repos happen. Suing over theft of clients between two Menno construction businesses (I know of 1). Lawsuit over family heirlooms (I know of 1). Cabinet/Kitchen remodel company suing over failure to pay. Menno trailer company suing when a large order placed and the ordering company backed out.

It's really sad.

How about pm'ing me the names and church affiliations? I'm a data type of guy, and I give very little credence to any kind of claim a person makes if it isn't accompanied by sufficient information for me to verify its accuracy. You seem determined to protect these people from their hypocrisy being made public, and I really don't understand why you are trying to cover for them.

I gave examples.

I'm not protecting them. A forum is an inappropriate place to be specific like that. Look up some prominent Anabaptist companies on Pacer. You'll have the specifics. You will not have to look very far. You can also look for legal liens from counties inside of densely populated Anabaptist communities from their county clerks. Do raw searches on their company names. Look up their LLC's on Pacer. Look up common last names of Mennos in densely populated counties on clerk / court records.

This is all public info.
You will need books to fill I'm sorry to say.
It's very sad to me.

EDIT: Go here https://courts.co.holmes.oh.us/eservices/home.page.9
Look it up. Common last names. Civil cases. It's shocking. Also you can check the business names.

[Chris]

Some of us are in jobs for which we are required by law to report any suspicions of child abuse and neglect. Basically anyone who works in a school, daycare center, health care setting, law enforcement, or social services and people with ancillary jobs in any of those areas.

If you are in a situation where you become aware of abuse and don't report it you can lose your job and even be prosecuted.

Yes. Putting faith over job requirements (and indeed they do tell you to do that), I still believe Jesus Christ had a strong passion to protect children. In a church setting I'd give the brother/sister a chance to turn himself in immediately. I believe the solution Soloist said was very appropriate. The church told him to turn himself in or they would need to do it for him.

Typically it wouldn't be a church setting.

Typically it would be a teacher or day care worker who has a child in their care who appears to be suffering from abuse or neglect (bruises, broken bones, malnutrition, PTSD, etc.

If you don't report you become complicit in the continued abuse (and potentially the death) of that child. Not to mention possibly being held criminally liable as well.

Very understandable.

[ken_sylvania]

I won't be specific but I'll speak of the industry.

Lawsuits when Septic systems / driveways / excavation work goes unpaid for (I know of MANY). Liens also placed on properties and fought in court if the property owner tries to legally remove lien. Lawsuits and liens on construction failure to pay (I know of 3) . Shed Rent to Own company owners suing customers who won't let repos happen. Suing over theft of clients between two Menno construction businesses (I know of 1). Lawsuit over family heirlooms (I know of 1). Cabinet/Kitchen remodel company suing over failure to pay. Menno trailer company suing when a large order placed and the ordering company backed out.

It's really sad.

How about pm'ing me the names and church affiliations? I'm a data type of guy, and I give very little credence to any kind of claim a person makes if it isn't accompanied by sufficient information for me to verify its accuracy. You seem determined to protect these people from their hypocrisy being made public, and I really don't understand why you are trying to cover for them.

I gave examples.

I'm not protecting them. A forum is an inappropriate place to be specific like that. Look up some prominent Anabaptist companies on Pacer. You'll have the specifics. You will not have to look very far. You can also look for legal liens from counties inside of densely populated Anabaptist communities from their county clerks. Do raw searches on their company names. Look up their LLC's on Pacer. Look up common last names of Mennos in densely populated counties on clerk / court records.

This is all public info.
You will need books to fill I'm sorry to say.
It's very sad to me.

You have not given verifiable info. It so happens that I have somewhat of a hobby of looking up info on Pacer and have never come across the type of thing you are claiming.

I really don't see what the problem would be with divulging public information on a public forum. The Trickling Springs Creamery scandal got it's own thread here even, as did Jason Shenk. If Mennonite shed companies are suing to repo their rented sheds that's just as much of a scandal as any of these others.

[RZehr]

Nobody knows what to do about it?

If I were to initiate a lawsuit against someone for unpaid bills, I would be excommunicated if I refused to repent, acknowledge my error, and retract the lawsuit.

Same. It has been our church position since the 1950’s founding, that our members are to avoid lawsuits. I just checked our standard book now.
Under Non-Resistance, and between “Concerning Worldly Offices” (politics), and “Summons to Jury Duty”, it simply says:
Relating to Lawsuits
Lawsuits are to be avoided according to scriptures. (Matthew 5:40, Romans 12:17-21, 1 Corinthians 6:1-8)

I’ve personally lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in contract work that I did, and customers never paid. No lawsuit. I am far from alone. Few years later, I closed my business, having at least paid all of my suppliers in full. No bankruptcy.

[Chris]

How about pm'ing me the names and church affiliations? I'm a data type of guy, and I give very little credence to any kind of claim a person makes if it isn't accompanied by sufficient information for me to verify its accuracy. You seem determined to protect these people from their hypocrisy being made public, and I really don't understand why you are trying to cover for them.

I gave examples.

I'm not protecting them. A forum is an inappropriate place to be specific like that. Look up some prominent Anabaptist companies on Pacer. You'll have the specifics. You will not have to look very far. You can also look for legal liens from counties inside of densely populated Anabaptist communities from their county clerks. Do raw searches on their company names. Look up their LLC's on Pacer. Look up common last names of Mennos in densely populated counties on clerk / court records.

This is all public info.
You will need books to fill I'm sorry to say.
It's very sad to me.

You have not given verifiable info. It so happens that I have somewhat of a hobby of looking up info on Pacer and have never come across the type of thing you are claiming.

I really don't see what the problem would be with divulging public information on a public forum. The Trickling Springs Creamery scandal got it's own thread here even, as did Jason Shenk. If Mennonite shed companies are suing to repo their rented sheds that's just as much of a scandal as any of these others.

It's all public just start investigating. You'll be shocked.

EDIT: What surprises me is sexual molestation often gets swept under the rug... Yet some of you are surprised these people don't sue? Oh they sue others. Learn of their LLC names, they often have many.

[NedFlanders]

Sounds like it would be a good time to once again rethink your place in the moderate world Chris.

This is why more conservative groups draw lines, while people look on at them as judgemental…. Sorry you have not found deeper teaching and practice in your experience but that doesn’t mean you should brand more conservative groups the same - they do teach a non-resistance that goes much deeper than war.

If you want disillusionment stay in transitional churches.

[Chris]

Sounds like it would be a good time to once again rethink your place in the moderate world Chris.

This is why more conservative groups draw lines, while people look on at them as judgemental…. Sorry you have not found deeper teaching and practice in your experience but that doesn’t mean you should brand more conservative groups the same - they do teach a non-resistance that goes much deeper than war.

If you want disillusionment stay in transitional churches.

You are right. I should look at each church as it's own individual group. There may be "better" teachings in different settings. I do not want disillusionment and that's what frustrates me. I know it shows up in my type. I can't stand anything "less than the truth". Sometimes that truth hurts even, but it's the truth.

[Valerie]

How about pm'ing me the names and church affiliations? I'm a data type of guy, and I give very little credence to any kind of claim a person makes if it isn't accompanied by sufficient information for me to verify its accuracy. You seem determined to protect these people from their hypocrisy being made public, and I really don't understand why you are trying to cover for them.

I gave examples.

I'm not protecting them. A forum is an inappropriate place to be specific like that. Look up some prominent Anabaptist companies on Pacer. You'll have the specifics. You will not have to look very far. You can also look for legal liens from counties inside of densely populated Anabaptist communities from their county clerks. Do raw searches on their company names. Look up their LLC's on Pacer. Look up common last names of Mennos in densely populated counties on clerk / court records.

This is all public info.
You will need books to fill I'm sorry to say.
It's very sad to me.

You have not given verifiable info. It so happens that I have somewhat of a hobby of looking up info on Pacer and have never come across the type of thing you are claiming.

I really don't see what the problem would be with divulging public information on a public forum. The Trickling Springs Creamery scandal got it's own thread here even, as did Jason Shenk. If Mennonite shed companies are suing to repo their rented sheds that's just as much of a scandal as any of these others.

So basically you are implying he's making this up, or trying to paint the picture because he won't divulge, it is not credible. Interesting a brother in the Lord would come across as accusatory over something so upsetting to Chris. He's trying to convey his heart on the matter & casting doubt on his word doesn't help him feel better about the concerns he has if people are in denial. It really just adds to one more reason one could be dismayed.

It's really not your business to meddle Scriptural speaking, just believe he's being honest.

[AndersonD]

I gave examples.

I'm not protecting them. A forum is an inappropriate place to be specific like that. Look up some prominent Anabaptist companies on Pacer. You'll have the specifics. You will not have to look very far. You can also look for legal liens from counties inside of densely populated Anabaptist communities from their county clerks. Do raw searches on their company names. Look up their LLC's on Pacer. Look up common last names of Mennos in densely populated counties on clerk / court records.

This is all public info.
You will need books to fill I'm sorry to say.
It's very sad to me.

You have not given verifiable info. It so happens that I have somewhat of a hobby of looking up info on Pacer and have never come across the type of thing you are claiming.

I really don't see what the problem would be with divulging public information on a public forum. The Trickling Springs Creamery scandal got it's own thread here even, as did Jason Shenk. If Mennonite shed companies are suing to repo their rented sheds that's just as much of a scandal as any of these others.

So basically you are implying he's making this up, or trying to paint the picture because he won't divulge, it is not credible. Interesting a brother in the Lord would come across as accusatory over something so upsetting to Chris. He's trying to convey his heart on the matter & casting doubt on his word doesn't help him feel better about the concerns he has if people are in denial. It really just adds to one more reason one could be dismayed.

It's really not your business to meddle Scriptural speaking, just believe he's being honest.

It is fake news, Valerie. Chris is distressed about something that isn't happening in the Mennonite world. I cannot speak for MC USA or people from Russian Mennonite background like the Kleine Gemiende or Holdemans...but I doubt they sue either.

[Josh]

Neither do Anabaptists. They just lie to themselves.

That’s not a fair claim.

Example: Sheds dominate incomes with conservative Anabaptist. Customer pulls a gun on a repossession shed. They call the cops. Almost every single time. They also sue the customers if they won't give up the RTO building. A lawsuit is enforced by the law, and all laws are enforced by the executive branch (police) which are armed.

The RTO financing is usually an outside entity (and often cheaper than using a credit card). The barn lot just goes and picks up someone else’s property (in this case, the RTO financier). I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

If someone pulls a gun on someone I think the cops need to be called, every single time. The question is if I’d pull a gun back on them. I won’t.

Calling the cops is proxy resistance.

Police officers need salvation. To utilize their services for oneself is to resist another with force.

No it isn’t. The Bible says the magistrate is ordained by God to maintain law and order.

There was an assault at an Anabaptist brother's meeting once. They called the cops.

Any time you call the cops, you call upon a human being in need of Christ to enforce (armed with a gun) the law on another person. That is proxy resistance.

No, it isn’t; Chris, I realise you are angry at conservative Anabaptists but maybe you should read a bunch of the testimonies above.

The moral high ground of Anabaptists on Non-Resistance is no better than any other religion, they just simply employ others to do the violence for them.

P.S. For the naysayers saying "the world deals with itself with a sword" this is a false teaching an narrative. For an Anabaptist to call the police, they are in the world just the same. They are using armed agents of the government to commit force and violence against another. This is not non-resistance. This is no moral high ground. This is proxy resistance with a delusion of moral supremacy.

If you want to teach real non-resistance, don't ever call the cops or sue another person ever... For any reason. If you believe you can, you are not non-resistant.

True non-resistance would never call a force filled government against another person. Anabaptists do it ALL the time. Even conservative ones.

There are a lot of Anabaptists who don’t call the cops. Guess what? They won’t report sexual abuse to the police either.

Do you still maintain your “never call the cops” stance?