Church Service is Boring.... sorry

[Chris]

You have not given verifiable info. It so happens that I have somewhat of a hobby of looking up info on Pacer and have never come across the type of thing you are claiming.

I really don't see what the problem would be with divulging public information on a public forum. The Trickling Springs Creamery scandal got it's own thread here even, as did Jason Shenk. If Mennonite shed companies are suing to repo their rented sheds that's just as much of a scandal as any of these others.

So basically you are implying he's making this up, or trying to paint the picture because he won't divulge, it is not credible. Interesting a brother in the Lord would come across as accusatory over something so upsetting to Chris. He's trying to convey his heart on the matter & casting doubt on his word doesn't help him feel better about the concerns he has if people are in denial. It really just adds to one more reason one could be dismayed.

It's really not your business to meddle Scriptural speaking, just believe he's being honest.

It is fake news, Valerie. Chris is distressed about something that isn't happening in the Mennonite world. I cannot speak for MC USA or people from Russian Mennonite background like the Kleine Gemiende or Holdemans...but I doubt they sue either.

I'm sorry if you believe I'm lying. Mercy. I assure you that I am not. I think it is only fair that you look and seek before calling somebody a liar. I've seen it with my own eyes numerous times.

This thread is the distress of repetitive elementary sermons & to encourage more in depth spiritual development within churches. Non-resistance is one of those topics, as I've seen member brothers suing people. Often it's not just brothers, it's their LLC. If they can get a non-menno in their LLC, they are in a perfect situation to push it on the non menno.

I am not so sure why this is so SHOCKING to people (lawsuits). There are child molestation cases all through the Anabaptist world. I assure you, if there are member brothers/sisters willing to molest innocent children, there are prominent businessmen who sue/lien non paying customers. It's not so illogical is it? Look for it, you will absolutely be stumped. While both are wrong, I can at least stand next to a person who sues their customers without being fully disgusted.

Lawsuits are sad and wrong, but the person just needs to correct / stop the lawsuitsr. Child molesters I can't ever see them the same again (I can forgive, but it's just.. barf). Becoming hermits in Siberia to live out their lives is a good solution for them.

[Chris]

Neither do Anabaptists. They just lie to themselves.

That’s not a fair claim.

Example: Sheds dominate incomes with conservative Anabaptist. Customer pulls a gun on a repossession shed. They call the cops. Almost every single time. They also sue the customers if they won't give up the RTO building. A lawsuit is enforced by the law, and all laws are enforced by the executive branch (police) which are armed.

The RTO financing is usually an outside entity (and often cheaper than using a credit card). The barn lot just goes and picks up someone else’s property (in this case, the RTO financier). I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

If someone pulls a gun on someone I think the cops need to be called, every single time. The question is if I’d pull a gun back on them. I won’t.

Calling the cops is proxy resistance.

Police officers need salvation. To utilize their services for oneself is to resist another with force.

No it isn’t. The Bible says the magistrate is ordained by God to maintain law and order.

There was an assault at an Anabaptist brother's meeting once. They called the cops.

Any time you call the cops, you call upon a human being in need of Christ to enforce (armed with a gun) the law on another person. That is proxy resistance.

No, it isn’t; Chris, I realise you are angry at conservative Anabaptists but maybe you should read a bunch of the testimonies above.

The moral high ground of Anabaptists on Non-Resistance is no better than any other religion, they just simply employ others to do the violence for them.

P.S. For the naysayers saying "the world deals with itself with a sword" this is a false teaching an narrative. For an Anabaptist to call the police, they are in the world just the same. They are using armed agents of the government to commit force and violence against another. This is not non-resistance. This is no moral high ground. This is proxy resistance with a delusion of moral supremacy.

If you want to teach real non-resistance, don't ever call the cops or sue another person ever... For any reason. If you believe you can, you are not non-resistant.

True non-resistance would never call a force filled government against another person. Anabaptists do it ALL the time. Even conservative ones.

There are a lot of Anabaptists who don’t call the cops. Guess what? They won’t report sexual abuse to the police either.

Do you still maintain your “never call the cops” stance?

Josh it's complicated. First, many rent to own companies are very often in house under different LLC names (not just buildings, but rent to own actual site built houses too!). Second, many liens exist on properties all within counties of menno owned excavation companies. Third, liens exist from construction and roofing companies too. Why is it so difficult to pacer or check county records? I'm being called a liar on this forum essentially because I don't want to hang a specific companies and people on a forum. If you seek it you will find it.

"Never call the cops" stance on child molesters.
I didn't make the government the way it is. My vote would be have them turn themselves in or the entire brotherhood can escort them to Siberia to live out their years as hermits.

"Call the cops on somebody who pulls a gun".
Are you admitting it is okay to resist an evil person through proxy? A magistrate should not need to enforce worldly laws for Christians. Between unbelievers there are police. They are not Christians anyway. If it involves a believer in Christ, we forgive, we give gentle answers, we allow ourselves to be victims to their violence and hate.

Again I have no idea why lawsuits / liens is so shocking here. Josh you just admitted that there is child molesters. I agree. Would you rather a brother be involved in child molestation and need to correct it or tell a brother he needs to squash all liens and lawsuits and to stop it?

[Ken]

Chris:

On this thread you are arguing about all the "bad" things that happen in Mennonite communities from lawsuits and repo operations to child molestation.

At the very same time over on the capitalism thread you are talking about a Christian utopia where government is not even needed.

Which is it? Both premises cannot be true.

[ken_sylvania]

I gave examples.

I'm not protecting them. A forum is an inappropriate place to be specific like that. Look up some prominent Anabaptist companies on Pacer. You'll have the specifics. You will not have to look very far. You can also look for legal liens from counties inside of densely populated Anabaptist communities from their county clerks. Do raw searches on their company names. Look up their LLC's on Pacer. Look up common last names of Mennos in densely populated counties on clerk / court records.

This is all public info.
You will need books to fill I'm sorry to say.
It's very sad to me.

You have not given verifiable info. It so happens that I have somewhat of a hobby of looking up info on Pacer and have never come across the type of thing you are claiming.

I really don't see what the problem would be with divulging public information on a public forum. The Trickling Springs Creamery scandal got it's own thread here even, as did Jason Shenk. If Mennonite shed companies are suing to repo their rented sheds that's just as much of a scandal as any of these others.

So basically you are implying he's making this up, or trying to paint the picture because he won't divulge, it is not credible. Interesting a brother in the Lord would come across as accusatory over something so upsetting to Chris. He's trying to convey his heart on the matter & casting doubt on his word doesn't help him feel better about the concerns he has if people are in denial. It really just adds to one more reason one could be dismayed.

Your accusation is false. I am not implying that he's making this up. I'm saying don't make accusations if you're not prepared to back them up. There is enough gossip, slander and lies in this world that I have decided it's best not to believe an evil report about someone unless the person making that evil report has evidence to back it up.

Would you want me to believe everything that Josh says about you just because he's a brother?

It's really not your business to meddle Scriptural speaking, just believe he's being honest.

Ummm, is it any of your business???? I don't have a problem if you want to give an opinion, but I think it's hilarious that you're doing the same thing you don't seem to like me doing.

[AndersonD]

So basically you are implying he's making this up, or trying to paint the picture because he won't divulge, it is not credible. Interesting a brother in the Lord would come across as accusatory over something so upsetting to Chris. He's trying to convey his heart on the matter & casting doubt on his word doesn't help him feel better about the concerns he has if people are in denial. It really just adds to one more reason one could be dismayed.

It's really not your business to meddle Scriptural speaking, just believe he's being honest.

It is fake news, Valerie. Chris is distressed about something that isn't happening in the Mennonite world. I cannot speak for MC USA or people from Russian Mennonite background like the Kleine Gemiende or Holdemans...but I doubt they sue either.

I'm sorry if you believe I'm lying. Mercy. I assure you that I am not. I think it is only fair that you look and seek before calling somebody a liar. I've seen it with my own eyes numerous times.

This thread is the distress of repetitive elementary sermons & to encourage more in depth spiritual development within churches. Non-resistance is one of those topics, as I've seen member brothers suing people. Often it's not just brothers, it's their LLC. If they can get a non-menno in their LLC, they are in a perfect situation to push it on the non menno.

I am not so sure why this is so SHOCKING to people (lawsuits). There are child molestation cases all through the Anabaptist world. I assure you, if there are member brothers/sisters willing to molest innocent children, there are prominent businessmen who sue/lien non paying customers. It's not so illogical is it? Look for it, you will absolutely be stumped. While both are wrong, I can at least stand next to a person who sues their customers without being fully disgusted.

Lawsuits are sad and wrong, but the person just needs to correct / stop the lawsuitsr. Child molesters I can't ever see them the same again (I can forgive, but it's just.. barf). Becoming hermits in Siberia to live out their lives is a good solution for them.

I trust individuals but I also verify.

[AndersonD]

It is fake news, Valerie. Chris is distressed about something that isn't happening in the Mennonite world. I cannot speak for MC USA or people from Russian Mennonite background like the Kleine Gemiende or Holdemans...but I doubt they sue either.

I'm sorry if you believe I'm lying. Mercy. I assure you that I am not. I think it is only fair that you look and seek before calling somebody a liar. I've seen it with my own eyes numerous times.

This thread is the distress of repetitive elementary sermons & to encourage more in depth spiritual development within churches. Non-resistance is one of those topics, as I've seen member brothers suing people. Often it's not just brothers, it's their LLC. If they can get a non-menno in their LLC, they are in a perfect situation to push it on the non menno.

I am not so sure why this is so SHOCKING to people (lawsuits). There are child molestation cases all through the Anabaptist world. I assure you, if there are member brothers/sisters willing to molest innocent children, there are prominent businessmen who sue/lien non paying customers. It's not so illogical is it? Look for it, you will absolutely be stumped. While both are wrong, I can at least stand next to a person who sues their customers without being fully disgusted.

Lawsuits are sad and wrong, but the person just needs to correct / stop the lawsuitsr. Child molesters I can't ever see them the same again (I can forgive, but it's just.. barf). Becoming hermits in Siberia to live out their lives is a good solution for them.

I trust individuals but I also verify. Your statements about Mennonites suing at law is not true. I would be excommunicated for suing someone and I would be excommunicated for being part of an LLC with a fellow Non Menno member. I ask for some allowance to push back against fake news on a forum.

[Josh]

Unequal inheritance. Many business contracts broken. Thefts. I’ve known of, watched, and experienced many, many material injustice suffered by conservative non-resistant Mennonites. And I can’t think of a single time where they sued. I find your account of “many lawsuits” very bizarre to hear of.

In my church being a plaintiff is grounds for excommunication and I think it is in yours too. It is dubious to even hire a lawyer to send a letter requesting funds owed to be paid, but sometimes that does happen. Doing so is discouraged.

I suspect Chris has been around some barely-conservative groups that play fast and loose and have a strong ethnic culture but have abandoned many historic Anabaptist beliefs. Unfortunately many such groups and churches do exist. I don’t commune with them.

[Josh]

I'm challenged on calling the police about child molestation 10,000%, perhaps more because it angers me so bad, I would need the police to hold me back.... Or I could just grab a millstone and get it over with. May God have mercy!

Some of us are in jobs for which we are required by law to report any suspicions of child abuse and neglect. Basically anyone who works in a school, daycare center, health care setting, law enforcement, or social services and people with ancillary jobs in any of those areas.

If you are in a situation where you become aware of abuse and don't report it you can lose your job and even be prosecuted.

And I don’t see how simply telling the police some facts means one is “resisting”. I call the police and report drunk drivers. It is up to the police what to do with them.

I don’t think being a Christian means turning a blind eye to someone driving literally on the wrong side of the road…

[ohio jones]

I'm sorry if you believe I'm lying. Mercy. I assure you that I am not.

I have no reason to believe you are lying. But I think you might be taking your own experiences and observations, which are limited in scope (as are everyone's), and extrapolating them across all of Mennodom, including places where they do not apply.

[Chris]

It is fake news, Valerie. Chris is distressed about something that isn't happening in the Mennonite world. I cannot speak for MC USA or people from Russian Mennonite background like the Kleine Gemiende or Holdemans...but I doubt they sue either.

I'm sorry if you believe I'm lying. Mercy. I assure you that I am not. I think it is only fair that you look and seek before calling somebody a liar. I've seen it with my own eyes numerous times.

This thread is the distress of repetitive elementary sermons & to encourage more in depth spiritual development within churches. Non-resistance is one of those topics, as I've seen member brothers suing people. Often it's not just brothers, it's their LLC. If they can get a non-menno in their LLC, they are in a perfect situation to push it on the non menno.

I am not so sure why this is so SHOCKING to people (lawsuits). There are child molestation cases all through the Anabaptist world. I assure you, if there are member brothers/sisters willing to molest innocent children, there are prominent businessmen who sue/lien non paying customers. It's not so illogical is it? Look for it, you will absolutely be stumped. While both are wrong, I can at least stand next to a person who sues their customers without being fully disgusted.

Lawsuits are sad and wrong, but the person just needs to correct / stop the lawsuitsr. Child molesters I can't ever see them the same again (I can forgive, but it's just.. barf). Becoming hermits in Siberia to live out their lives is a good solution for them.

I trust individuals but I also verify. Your statements about Mennonites suing at law is not true. I would be excommunicated for suing someone and I would be excommunicated for being part of an LLC with a fellow Non Menno member. I ask for some allowance to push back against fake news on a forum.

I hate to break it to you... But you do not know what these churches are then. It happens. I'm not going to point to any specific companies, but you are 100% wrong. Watch the money. Look at those companies if you even care to investigate. The truth stands on it's own. I don't have to prove the truth.

That said, since you believe I'm a liar, we really don't have anything further to discuss.