Does the "Charity Church" really exist anymore?

[Valerie]

This is reminding me of a message from Charity in 2008 i think it was- may sound familiar:

"Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisees stood and prayed this with himself, 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men - extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector standing a far off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted".Luke 18:9-14.

The message was given from a visiting padtor from South America noticing how Lancaster PA Christians were comparing themselves in such a way as the Pharisee- it was an admonishment & warning.

He repeated 3x: "be careful of spiritual pride, it is an infection"

It does creep up on us doesn't it?

It seemed shortly after this admonishment is when Charity began some changes

There are brothers and sisters going apostate and so there is concern and compassion. And you view such as comparing?

Is it not okay to desire to understand drift to aid in being a blessing and building up? Why tear down like this Valerie?

I'm sorry it came across as tearing down. Maybe because I've been seeing these conversations for 15 years. I don't see things improving and I don't think it's going to be resolved on this particular discussion forum.
I cant help but wonder if the foundation/priorities shifted

[Josh]

One of the problems at hand was that the Charity churches got their start being very critical of other plain groups (including over “drift”). It seems fair to apply their own founding principles to where they are now.

The other founding principle that I think is fatal is the belief in being a “remnant”, i.e. we are special and doing things right when nobody else is, as opposed to believing that one could be the true church right now, but if following the true faith in the Bible is lost, one can very easily lose their candlestick.

It centres around identity: I think the Remnant movement got started off with the belief they were “special” because they were plain. I don’t think the true faith is centred around dressing “plain”.

[Marylander]

I don't think the belief in being a remnant is fatal. Here is a statement about John Holdeman. The Church of God in Christ Mennonites are now 30k strong.

"...he was brought to perceive more fully and clearly the decay and the errors into which he believed the church had drifted, which wrought within him much prayerful concern and travail of soul. His understanding of the condition of the church was, he believed, revealed to him by the Lord."

[Marylander]

A statement regarding Francis Herr, son of John.

"...Francis gave as his reason for leaving the church the fact that the Mennonites had departed far from the beliefs and practices of their founder Menno Simons and that the church leaders had become too lax in disciplining those members who had become careless in their religious life and social practices."

So the common thread between the Reformed Mennonites, Church of God in Christ Mennonites, and Charity is that their founders were "spiritually enlightened". And the Herrites and Holdeman's have very similar practices/ doctrines...views on divorce and remarriage, no dating, the ban, and avoidance of other religious groups. The bishop at Middlesex told me he feels no affinity with an Amish man even though spiritually the Mennonites and Amish are first cousins.

[ABC 123]

Just a few observations of mine.

Back in the early 1990s, the Charity church was revving up and catching on in other places than Pennsylvania. A bunch of churches formed modeled after them, and often referred to themselves as Charity affiliated. For some, a trip to the actual Charity Christian Fellowship was like a trip to the Mecca. (People wouldn't have said that in so many words.) To have someone say your family was like the Kenastons was such a compliment.

Years passed and people came and went. New fellowships sprung up. Most of the ones in Ohio had their start from Faith Christian Fellowship in Holmes County. You can trace most of them back to there if you know the right people who remember. Cambridge was their own version, but was part of the same movement and freely Fellowship back and forth with Holmes County.

I think as years went on and children grew up, the families started to realize their youth weren't necessarily on board with some of the zeal their parents took on. Not saying zeal is wrong, but some of it was almost artificial and fueled by frequent pep rallies of stirring sermons patterned after Denny and Mose. (Godly Home Series anyone?)

Here came the division. Some families took a modified enthusiasm route, deciding to temper some of the rigidity and patterning themselves after a gentler, less extreme model like their BMA sort of cousins. Steve Stutzman was an early example of this. (I am not sure what Mennonite church he went with, but when he moved to PA he did not go to Charity that i know of).

Some doubled down on the original Charity model and even went so far as to cement some of their practices in a standard. Written? Not sure, but the ones who did this purged their numbers of people who did not conform. These churches remain in operation, but I think they go by a different name than "Charity" now. The less strict ones mostly absorbed back into other anabaptist churches. A great number of the NMB people who came enthusiastically ducked out of the entire anabaptist circle.

[joshuabgood]

Just a few observations of mine.

Back in the early 1990s, the Charity church was revving up and catching on in other places than Pennsylvania. A bunch of churches formed modeled after them, and often referred to themselves as Charity affiliated. For some, a trip to the actual Charity Christian Fellowship was like a trip to the Mecca. (People wouldn't have said that in so many words.) To have someone say your family was like the Kenastons was such a compliment.

Years passed and people came and went. New fellowships sprung up. Most of the ones in Ohio had their start from Faith Christian Fellowship in Holmes County. You can trace most of them back to there if you know the right people who remember. Cambridge was their own version, but was part of the same movement and freely Fellowship back and forth with Holmes County.

I think as years went on and children grew up, the families started to realize their youth weren't necessarily on board with some of the zeal their parents took on. Not saying zeal is wrong, but some of it was almost artificial and fueled by frequent pep rallies of stirring sermons patterned after Denny and Mose. (Godly Home Series anyone?)

Here came the division. Some families took a modified enthusiasm route, deciding to temper some of the rigidity and patterning themselves after a gentler, less extreme model like their BMA sort of cousins. Steve Stutzman was an early example of this. (I am not sure what Mennonite church he went with, but when he moved to PA he did not go to Charity that i know of).

Some doubled down on the original Charity model and even went so far as to cement some of their practices in a standard. Written? Not sure, but the ones who did this purged their numbers of people who did not conform. These churches remain in operation, but I think they go by a different name than "Charity" now. The less strict ones mostly absorbed back into other anabaptist churches. A great number of the NMB people who came enthusiastically ducked out of the entire anabaptist circle.

Steve is an interesting example (he is a personal acquaintance of mine - though we don't see eye to eye on a few things =). He went to a "Charity" type of church in Kalona Iowa area, when I first met him along with another good friend of mine, and then that church went through significant turmoil, and Steve, and my other friend landed at Sunnyside Mennonite right in Kalona, which at that time would have been CMC (now Rosedale). Later Sunnyside, which was more conservative than Upper Deer Creek, Lower Deer Creek, or Fairview, joined BMA when that formed...with Jon King leading the church. In that setting Steve retained his charismatic (not meant in a pejorative way) influence...and after a couple of years found his way to Gospel Express ministry, also significantly influenced by the "fivefold" folks charismatic arm (and by which they remain significantly influenced). Later still Steve moved to Lancaster where he joined with Life, then BMA, now ex-BMA...and from which he played role in supporting Bethesda Christian Fellowship starting, led by Leroy Miller from Ill and Ron Yoder (close to Steve via his Gospel Express days), and which also has a charismatic influence (fivefold, Bruce Lengaman, etc). After the Charity church in Iowa, I don't believe Steve ever was re-associated with Charity type churches. (he reads this sometimes, so if you want to add or clarify Steve, as a public figure =), feel free to))

[Josh]

I don't think the belief in being a remnant is fatal. Here is a statement about John Holdeman. The Church of God in Christ Mennonites are now 30k strong.

"...he was brought to perceive more fully and clearly the decay and the errors into which he believed the church had drifted, which wrought within him much prayerful concern and travail of soul. His understanding of the condition of the church was, he believed, revealed to him by the Lord."

Simply put, Holdemanism isn’t based around a belief in the individual people being a “remnant” that makes them special, although I get the impression it used to be that way. Rather there is a belief that the church as a whole is the true church, but each individual member is accountable to God, the truth in the Bible, and to their congregation and church as a whole to obey Jesus.

There are frequently sermons that relying on one’s church membership won’t get you to heaven, and that many people will make it to heaven who were never church members or even part of any church. And that our church could lose its candlestick if we don’t follow the Bible and follow the Spirit’s leading, such as what we agreed to in our Conference decisions. We could lose our lamp at any time if we choose to be disobedient.

An example of this shift is that few people (at least under the age of 45) believe in a lineage view of the true church anymore and instead would be closer to Menno Simons’ view that the church’s flame of true faith periodically has to be reignited by the Spirit.

[Josh]

A statement regarding Francis Herr, son of John.

"...Francis gave as his reason for leaving the church the fact that the Mennonites had departed far from the beliefs and practices of their founder Menno Simons and that the church leaders had become too lax in disciplining those members who had become careless in their religious life and social practices."

So the common thread between the Reformed Mennonites, Church of God in Christ Mennonites, and Charity is that their founders were "spiritually enlightened".

That’s a common thread between everyone who starts a division over perceived drift / apostasy, though, right down to most of the magisterial reformers.

And the Herrites and Holdeman's have very similar practices/ doctrines...views on divorce and remarriage,

They held (and hold) the same view other Mennonites did in the 1800s.

no dating, the ban, and avoidance of other religious groups.

Yes, although it’s worth noting Apostolic Christians function similarly and that the description of early Flemish and Frisian Anabaptism was also extremely similar - in fact, that’s why John Holdeman pushed it so hard; he got a lot of his ideas from reading early Dutch Anabaptist writings.

The bishop at Middlesex told me he feels no affinity with an Amish man even though spiritually the Mennonites and Amish are first cousins.

Are you speaking of a Reformed Mennonite bishop?

I would say I feel surprisingly little affinity with the Swiss Brethren branch of Anabaptism. They simply “think” differently than I do, whether we are talking about “liberal”groups like Lancaster Conference or MC USA’s Ohio Conference, or plain groups like the Amish, RNoC, or BMA.

John Holdeman was Swiss himself, but basically adjusted his thinking to Dutch Anabaptism and ended up leaving behind a legacy of a church that was mostly Dutch Anabaptists - with him inspiring them to return to the biblical ways of their forefathers.

[Marylander]

A statement regarding Francis Herr, son of John.

"...Francis gave as his reason for leaving the church the fact that the Mennonites had departed far from the beliefs and practices of their founder Menno Simons and that the church leaders had become too lax in disciplining those members who had become careless in their religious life and social practices."

So the common thread between the Reformed Mennonites, Church of God in Christ Mennonites, and Charity is that their founders were "spiritually enlightened".

That’s a common thread between everyone who starts a division over perceived drift / apostasy, though, right down to most of the magisterial reformers.

And the Herrites and Holdeman's have very similar practices/ doctrines...views on divorce and remarriage,

They held (and hold) the same view other Mennonites did in the 1800s.

no dating, the ban, and avoidance of other religious groups.

Yes, although it’s worth noting Apostolic Christians function similarly and that the description of early Flemish and Frisian Anabaptism was also extremely similar - in fact, that’s why John Holdeman pushed it so hard; he got a lot of his ideas from reading early Dutch Anabaptist writings.

The bishop at Middlesex told me he feels no affinity with an Amish man even though spiritually the Mennonites and Amish are first cousins.

Are you speaking of a Reformed Mennonite bishop?

I would say I feel surprisingly little affinity with the Swiss Brethren branch of Anabaptism. They simply “think” differently than I do, whether we are talking about “liberal”groups like Lancaster Conference or MC USA’s Ohio Conference, or plain groups like the Amish, RNoC, or BMA.

John Holdeman was Swiss himself, but basically adjusted his thinking to Dutch Anabaptism and ended up leaving behind a legacy of a church that was mostly Dutch Anabaptists - with him inspiring them to return to the biblical ways of their forefathers.

Yes, a Reformed Mennonite bishop.

That is what intrigues me about John Holdeman - Swiss brethren background and he shifted towards Dutch Mennonite views which in the end fueled the growth in his group.

Although there are no Holdemans in my area, they are viewed favorably on account of their outreach. And the ones I relate to are scientific and don't hold to conspiracy theories which I appreciate.

[ohio jones]

Later Sunnyside, which was more conservative than Upper Deer Creek, Lower Deer Creek, or Fairview, joined BMA when that formed...

Minor correction; Sunnyside (Kalona) was not a part of the original BMA group c. 1999, but left CMC in 2012.