The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Neto
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The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by Neto »

My impression form early anabaptist writings is that due to the persecution they were experiencing, they expected Christ to return fairly soon. In the letters printed in Martyrs' Mirror, there are frequent references to the "souls under the altar", and the accounts of the deaths of the martyrs often refer to them in this context, that they are waiting under the altar, for the full number of their brothers to die for the faith.

My question for the community here, however, is a subjective one - Do you think they would maintain the same conviction (that Christ could return at any time) if they lived today, or had the benefit of Church history up to this date, as we do? Or would they say that there are signs & prophecies yet unfulfilled, so that the return of Christ is not imminent? (In the MB church environment in which I was raised, it would have been considered heresy to say this. But I don't hold to that belief, and while I would love to still be living when those prophecies come to past, I don't expect it in my life time. And yes, I do realize that some here believe that all of this has already taken place, but it is abundantly obvious from even a cursory exposure to the Martyrs' Mirror, that the early anabaptists considered it a future event, one they waited for somewhat impatiently. But I don't want to get into that discussion here - I would like to hear responses from those who believe that Jesus' return is still future, or, if someone who believes that Jesus HAS already returned, I would ask them to suppose, for the sake of discussion, that this is still future, and tell how they would respond if they believed that.)
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by MattY »

My question for the community here, however, is a subjective one - Do you think they would maintain the same conviction (that Christ could return at any time) if they lived today, or had the benefit of Church history up to this date, as we do? Or would they say that there are signs & prophecies yet unfulfilled, so that the return of Christ is not imminent?
I don't think living in today's world would change their view necessarily. Christians may not be persecuted in the West today (at least not in any extent similar to what our forefathers faced), but consider the following two things: (1) The decadence of Western culture, falling away from God and repudiating the the moral law written on men's conscience - reminding us of 2 Tim. 3:1, 13: "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come....evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." And, (2) Christians are facing persecution in many other areas in the world - if the presence of persecution in their time was a sign of the imminent return, then persecution in our time is also, even if we're not experiencing it in our area.

But we really can't know what they would think. None of us reads the Bible in isolation - we all are influenced by the insights and interpretations of those who have read it before us. (And hopefully we benefit from it). So if they lived today, they might have read and absorbed the arguments of those who say that the return is not imminent, which might make their view different.

We might have to define "imminent". It could mean "at any moment", with nothing needing to happen first in order for the return of Christ to happen. I think that's a possible interpretation of Scripture, but not wholly necessary. But Neto, I would be interested to know why you don't think it will happen in your lifetime? I think Scripture teaches we should live in expectation of its nearness, if that makes sense - as if it could happen within our lifetimes, or even possibly at any moment. See, e.g. 1 Peter 4:7; Hebrews 10:25; Titus 2:11-14. Also note Paul's words in 1 Thess. 4:15 - "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep." From the pronouns he used, we can see that Paul anticipated that the Lord's return could happen within his lifetime - if not, he would have switched the pronouns. So I think post-tribulationalism is not necessarily in conflict with the Bible's teaching on the nearness of Christ's return (it argues for a fairly short series of events before Christ's return), but postmillennialism definitely is, as well as a similar, optimistic form of amillennialism that expects things to get better and the church to establish Christ's Lordship over the nations prior to Christ's return.

It seems to me that the New Testament encourages watchfulness and expectancy both for the Lord's return and for other events that are to happen in connection with it - but it doesn't really say clearly in what order some things will happen. And I think that might be intentional.
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Neto
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by Neto »

Some say that if you do not believe in the imminent return of Christ (Yes, I mean 'at any moment', like right now), then you will grow lax in your Christian way of life. But that argument ignores the fact that there is an imminency in our standing before the Lord, regardless of whether his return is imminent, or not (because any of us could die at any moment). I guess I am not expecting it to come about in my life time simply because so many have been wrong in the past. A relative of my family decided that the time was so close back in 1943, that they did not plant crops that year. (The extended family had to take care of them.) It was a buzz-word in the colonies in Russia in the 1860's & on. It was a big buzz during the 1970's, when I was in HS & college (with all sorts of 'End-Times' Christian movies, songs, & books coming out). This was fueled by the (then recent) establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948. But already then, from reading in the book of the prophet Isaiah, I had decided that I did not think that that political nation state was what is spoken of in the prophecies. And I do still tend to believe that the current political nation of Israel will again be scattered before that time. It is possible, however, that God will bring back the people to Israel (as spoken of in the prophet Isaiah) just as if the current nation does not exist at all, even without its destruction. (I did grow up in a strictly dispensationalist environment, and perhaps I have not yet 'vetted' all of the preconceptions I was handed from that perspective.)
I think that the comments in Martyrs' Mirror reveal not a belief in the doctrine of the imminent return of Christ as much as that they interpreted the events of their day as fulfilling the prophecies of Scripture which specify things which would occur before his return. Persecution is one of the things, and I think that they didn't look beyond that one thing.
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by appleman2006 »

Perhaps this is too simplistic for the discussion you would like to have but I have always said it something like this. "I want to live as if Jesus were coming today but I also want to live as if he were not coming for another 1000 years." Added to that I try to live with the reality that Christ is living here right now within me. Not sure how anything in the future can be more dramatic than that or more influential on the way that I presently live.
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by Josh »

All of us will die, some very soon. That should keep us from being lax.
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by JimFoxvog »

Josh wrote:All of us will die, some very soon. That should keep us from being lax.
But

[bible]1cor 15,51[/bible]
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by Josh »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Josh wrote:All of us will die, some very soon. That should keep us from being lax.
But

[bible]1cor 15,51[/bible]
You're right. I should have said most, not all.
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by Sudsy »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Josh wrote:All of us will die, some very soon. That should keep us from being lax.
But

[bible]1cor 15,51[/bible]
Great verse for a church nursery. :)
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Josh
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by Josh »

Neto wrote:My impression form early anabaptist writings is that due to the persecution they were experiencing, they expected Christ to return fairly soon. In the letters printed in Martyrs' Mirror, there are frequent references to the "souls under the altar", and the accounts of the deaths of the martyrs often refer to them in this context, that they are waiting under the altar, for the full number of their brothers to die for the faith.

My question for the community here, however, is a subjective one - Do you think they would maintain the same conviction (that Christ could return at any time) if they lived today, or had the benefit of Church history up to this date, as we do? Or would they say that there are signs & prophecies yet unfulfilled, so that the return of Christ is not imminent? (In the MB church environment in which I was raised, it would have been considered heresy to say this. But I don't hold to that belief, and while I would love to still be living when those prophecies come to past, I don't expect it in my life time. And yes, I do realize that some here believe that all of this has already taken place, but it is abundantly obvious from even a cursory exposure to the Martyrs' Mirror, that the early anabaptists considered it a future event, one they waited for somewhat impatiently. But I don't want to get into that discussion here - I would like to hear responses from those who believe that Jesus' return is still future, or, if someone who believes that Jesus HAS already returned, I would ask them to suppose, for the sake of discussion, that this is still future, and tell how they would respond if they believed that.)
I think that apocalyptic thinking often does lead to much stronger passion for converting the lost and zeal for living a victorious Christian life. But I think it tends to be short-lived and relies a lot on white-hot emotions. The fuel for such emotions eventually is spent.

The truth is that all of us need to prepare for the return of Christ in our lives within a short time - all of us within several decades: whether he returns to earth, or we leave our earthly coil. That's something that should sober all of us. And if Jesus has already returned to earth, well, we still face the coming judgment, and we must think about the coming judgment those who aren't choosing to follow him will face.
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Re: The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ

Post by gcdonner »

JimFoxvog wrote:
Josh wrote:All of us will die, some very soon. That should keep us from being lax.
But

[bible]1cor 15,51[/bible]
Was Paul right in his assessment? Were there some who did not die before the end, and were they all changed? He was speaking to specific people (the Corinthians) in encouraging them directly...not us.

Consider the following, as a former Dispensationalist it always troubled me that in the same sentence practically we would say that the second coming was imminent, but then it couldn't happen until the Great Commission was fulfilled first.

Dispensationalists still believe that the gospel has not been"preached in all the world", therefore "the end" cannot yet come.

These were some of the issues that got me questioning what I believed and taught.

If the folks who were Anabaptists "in the beginning" were still alive, would they still consider the Pope to be the Anti-christ?

Our views of scripture are so often tainted by what we "see" around us and what we are experiencing and then going to the Bible to interpret our world view, but fail to keep it in it's original context. While scripture was written FOR us, it was not written TO us. We are reading someone else's mail.

The bottom line question to be asking is were the NT writers inspired in their writings or not?
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