Bare minimum to be an Anabaptist

[ohio jones]

If one wants the "bare" minimum, look no further than the writings of Stuart Murray.

[Ken]

You could say the same thing about a LOT of Mennonites (including some here) who themselves won't directly kill someone, but are perfectly happy to support the existence of their local armed police department which can and does sometimes kill people.

There is a difference between joining the military to defend your country and appreciation for the protection it provides.
Most Mennonites would never join the military while the Baptist would happily do so. The same is true for the police.
I think you already know this and are trying to indirectly attack a certain view point which I have spoken against.

Ken does have a valid point. The vast majority of conservative Anabaptists underestimate the protection that our armed services and law enforcement provide. Contrary to what the media projects, there is a lot that goes on that most civilians never see.

And no, I am not an undercover state trooper trying to uncover a wide spread tax evasion scheme among the Mennonites.

I think that you (Soloist not Steve) underestimate the extent to which many (not all but many) Anabaptists are comfortable living in a society that has armed forces from the local town police department all the way up to the Army and Marines. Paid for by their tax dollars. And supported by the politicians that they support. As Josh said upstream: "The Bible teaches that the magistrate does not bear the sword in vain." and I think this sentiment is common. So long as they personally or their children are not conscripted there is little thought given to it. And we haven't had conscription in over 50 years so it isn't even an issue in the US.

And I think you overestimate the extent to which Christians in other churches are "warmongers" or support violence. I have known many many people from all manner of non-Anabaptist churches who are as opposed to war and violence as any stereotypical Anabaptist. Whether it be violence conducted on their behalf by local police, or military adventurism overseas. And who are most certainly personally opposed to engaging in violence themselves, whether it be beating their kids, carrying or owning firearms, working in jobs that require violence such as police, or working in the military.

My point is that believer baptism and being personally unwilling to engage in violence are hardly definitive of Anabaptism.

[Sudsy]

You could say the same thing about a LOT of Mennonites (including some here) who themselves won't directly kill someone, but are perfectly happy to support the existence of their local armed police department which can and does sometimes kill people.

There is a difference between joining the military to defend your country and appreciation for the protection it provides.
Most Mennonites would never join the military while the Baptist would happily do so. The same is true for the police.
I think you already know this and are trying to indirectly attack a certain view point which I have spoken against.

When i was a seeker to Anabaptism, there was a Baptist Pastor passing out tracts in our town square- i spoke with him a bit and brought up Anabaptist position on military and he was pretty confident in his belief that they interpret Scripture wrong regarding Christians serving their country in military. I don't see how an Anabaptist "in belief" could attend a Church where the opinion is they misinterpreted Scripture- then again, i guess to a certain extent wherever we attend we have the opinion that where we are "today" one has to allow for some possible misinterpretation. I think all Christian denominations would agree that we are not supposed to resist an evil person, and Jesus words of turning the other cheek etc it comes down to the difference between whether that is personal enemies or can be carried over into serving your country-
It is a tenant of the faith in the anabaptist interpretation so I can't imagine if you adhere to this in your heart and belief that you'd be comfortable in any other setting.

Same with female pastors. Even as Christians who appreciate Anabaptists but are not- we could not attend Churches with female pastors

To me these are two non negotiables to call oneself Anabaptist

Anabaptists have had women pastors since 1911 in Dutch Mennonite congregations and in various other Mennonite groups today. This does not appear to be a bare minimum issue to many who call themselves Anabaptist.

[Ken]

If that is your bare minimum criteria then nearly all Baptists and Pentecostals would also qualify as Anabaptists as they also practice believer baptism and the vast majority of them do not and would not kill another human being.

The vast majority are conscientious objectors to going to war?

It is all theoretical because we have not had conscription in 50 years in the US. In Canada there hasn't been conscription since WW2 and even then it was tiny. Only something like 13,000 Canadians total were drafted in 1944 and 1945 and only a small fraction made it to the front lines and combat. Most Canadian draftees were placed in supporting roles and were never deployed overseas. So, from a North American context, conscientious objection to conscription is essentially a non-issue or merely hypothetical. The last American conscripted was age 19 in 1973 and so would be age 79 today. There are probably no living Canadians who were subjected to conscription. So it is quickly passing from living memory in North America.

Should we actually experience another period of mass conscription in this country (which is exceedingly unlikely because the nature of warfare has change at least in the west), I would expect a re-fracturing of Christianity along new fault lines that are more liberal versus conservative. With lots of politically liberal non-Anabaptist churches coming out opposed and supportive of conscientious objection, and a lot of politically conservative churches supportive.

So yes, you can point to centuries past when Anabaptists defined themselves as nonresistant or pacifists in the face of universal conscription. That sort of thing is central to the history of Anabaptism. But when it comes to today in 2023? I'm not sure it is as much of a distinguishing factor as you think. Since it is an issue that virtually no one alive has faced or is likely to ever face.

[Soloist]

I think that you (Soloist not Steve) underestimate the extent to which many (not all but many) Anabaptists are comfortable living in a society that has armed forces from the local town police department all the way up to the Army and Marines. Paid for by their tax dollars. And supported by the politicians that they support. As Josh said upstream: "The Bible teaches that the magistrate does not bear the sword in vain." and I think this sentiment is common. So long as they personally or their children are not conscripted there is little thought given to it. And we haven't had conscription in over 50 years so it isn't even an issue in the US.

I never said it was wrong. I was making a point that there is a difference between living in a land protected by others and defending that land. I can’t change where I was born. I can’t change the actions of any military. I can’t change the fact that I served in our country in the Navy.
I can change my future actions to reflect my desire to do no harm to others.
I am not comfortable calling for the death of the wicked. I don’t somehow think that living comfortably protected by the military is wrong. What I see as wrong is serving in the military.
I also don’t vote nor do I support any politician. My church stands united on these things.
If you find this to be hypocrisy, well I really am content not worrying about things I can’t change.

And I think you overestimate the extent to which Christians in other churches are "warmongers" or support violence. I have known many many people from all manner of non-Anabaptist churches who are as opposed to war and violence as any stereotypical Anabaptist. Whether it be violence conducted on their behalf by local police, or military adventurism overseas. And who are most certainly personally opposed to engaging in violence themselves, whether it be beating their kids, carrying or owning firearms, working in jobs that require violence such as police, or working in the military.

I have sat in these churches that applaud the military, spend holidays praising the military in their midst. I have heard sermons praising the mighty country that God has blessed and recruiting ads in the back of the church.
My point is you will not hear or see this on a majority or even several in these conservative Mennonite churches.
I know that there are people who object to war in other churches. They are the minority.
Owning firearms doesn’t mean someone approves of killing people.

My point is that believer baptism and being personally unwilling to engage in violence are hardly definitive of Anabaptism.

Never argued that.

[Soloist]

Should we actually experience another period of mass conscription in this country (which is exceedingly unlikely because the nature of warfare has change at least in the west), I would expect a re-fracturing of Christianity along new fault lines that are more liberal versus conservative. With lots of politically liberal non-Anabaptist churches coming out opposed and supportive of conscientious objection, and a lot of politically conservative churches supportive.

What I will say is while Mennonite churches were burned and chained shut, the Baptist were in full swing during WW2.
Who helped me fill out my CO paperwork on the flip side? The liberal Mennonites who ran that service. They were the only ones providing that. No Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic or any other group did I find. Only the liberal Mennonites.

[Ken]

Should we actually experience another period of mass conscription in this country (which is exceedingly unlikely because the nature of warfare has change at least in the west), I would expect a re-fracturing of Christianity along new fault lines that are more liberal versus conservative. With lots of politically liberal non-Anabaptist churches coming out opposed and supportive of conscientious objection, and a lot of politically conservative churches supportive.

What I will say is while Mennonite churches were burned and chained shut, the Baptist were in full swing during WW2.
Who helped me fill out my CO paperwork on the flip side? The liberal Mennonites who ran that service. They were the only ones providing that. No Baptist, Pentecostal, Catholic or any other group did I find. Only the liberal Mennonites.

Which Mennonite churches were burned and chained shut during WW2? Are you talking about the United States or some place like Ukraine? I have never heard of such a thing. The government had a alternative voluntary service program for conscientious objectors during WW2 of which various relatives of mine took part.

Although honestly, more of them like my grandfather were simply exempted from service because they were engaged in agriculture and had families and so were not subject to conscription in the first place. I have no idea what the actual numbers were, but I would guess that during WW2 there were far more Amish and Mennonite young men who got agricultural/head of household exemptions than who did alternative service as conscientious objectors. So as long as you were married with children and running a farm you were not likely subject to conscription, even during WW2.

[Soloist]

Which Mennonite churches were burned and chained shut during WW2? Are you talking about the United States or some place like Ukraine? I have never heard of such a thing. The government had a alternative voluntary service program for conscientious objectors during WW2 of which various relatives of mine took part.

Although honestly, more of them like my grandfather were simply exempted from service because they were engaged in agriculture and had families and so were not subject to conscription in the first place. I have no idea what the actual numbers were, but I would guess that during WW2 there were far more Amish and Mennonite young men who got agricultural/head of household exemptions than who did alternative service as conscientious objectors. So as long as you were married with children and running a farm you were not likely subject to conscription, even during WW2.

There was a church in Oregon and one in Kansas I think?
I’d have to go digging again.

[Ken]

Which Mennonite churches were burned and chained shut during WW2? Are you talking about the United States or some place like Ukraine? I have never heard of such a thing. The government had a alternative voluntary service program for conscientious objectors during WW2 of which various relatives of mine took part.

Although honestly, more of them like my grandfather were simply exempted from service because they were engaged in agriculture and had families and so were not subject to conscription in the first place. I have no idea what the actual numbers were, but I would guess that during WW2 there were far more Amish and Mennonite young men who got agricultural/head of household exemptions than who did alternative service as conscientious objectors. So as long as you were married with children and running a farm you were not likely subject to conscription, even during WW2.

There was a church in Oregon and one in Kansas I think?
I’d have to go digging again.

My whole extended family on my father's side were Mennonites in Oregon during WW2 and I have never heard such a story. My great grandfather and several great uncles were Mennonite ministers in Oregon during that time. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it isn't part of any oral history I have ever heard. Very few of them did VS service in lieu of conscription, but rather most of them got agricultural exemptions to the draft. Although I did have one great uncle who served in the military during WW2 and then returned to be a member of the church where I grew up for many decades until he died. I have no idea whether he was drafted or volunteered. Same thing on my mother's side. She had an uncle who served in the military and then returned. So not all Mennonites took the conscientious objection route. Those who didn't were mostly just not talked about I think, and kind of brushed under the table. But they were not thrown out of the church.

[Soloist]

My whole extended family on my father's side were Mennonites in Oregon during WW2 and I have never heard such a story. My great grandfather and several great uncles were Mennonite ministers in Oregon during that time. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it isn't part of any oral history I have ever heard. Very few of them did VS service in lieu of conscription, but rather most of them got agricultural exemptions to the draft. Although I did have one great uncle who served in the military during WW2 and then returned to be a member of the church where I grew up for many decades until he died. I have no idea whether he was drafted or volunteered. Same thing on my mother's side. She had an uncle who served in the military and then returned. So not all Mennonites took the conscientious objection route. Those who didn't were mostly just not talked about I think, and kind of brushed under the table. But they were not thrown out of the church.

I might be misremembering and it might have been WW1. I know that it happened twice and I thought it was WW2 for the second time.
Did you hear about the tar and feathering?