Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:18 pm
My whole extended family on my father's side were Mennonites in Oregon during WW2 and I have never heard such a story. My great grandfather and several great uncles were Mennonite ministers in Oregon during that time. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it isn't part of any oral history I have ever heard. Very few of them did VS service in lieu of conscription, but rather most of them got agricultural exemptions to the draft. Although I did have one great uncle who served in the military during WW2 and then returned to be a member of the church where I grew up for many decades until he died. I have no idea whether he was drafted or volunteered. Same thing on my mother's side. She had an uncle who served in the military and then returned. So not all Mennonites took the conscientious objection route. Those who didn't were mostly just not talked about I think, and kind of brushed under the table. But they were not thrown out of the church.
I might be misremembering and it might have been WW1. I know that it happened twice and I thought it was WW2 for the second time.
Did you hear about the tar and feathering?
WW1 was a different time and before there was official government sanction of conscientious objection.
Also you have to distinguish between actual GOVERNMENT policy to persecute conscientious objectors versus what random hateful anonymous hot-heads might do on their own in some sort of vigilante harassment, which would most certainly NOT have been endorsed by any other religious group. There are most definitely stories of conscientious objectors being persecuted within the military during WW1 but even those cases may have been more the exception than the rule. Women are still harassed and even raped in the military today but that doesn't make it official government policy either.
So I would suggest that if some Mennonite church was burned down during WW2 it was most certainly not the result of any government policy, or something preached from the pulpit of a Baptist or Episcopal church. It would have been random hateful criminal acts no different from those who burn down Black churches today.
I would also venture to guess that this sort of public hostility towards Mennonites during WW2 and especially WW1 was as much (or more) due to the fact that many such congregations were insular and spoke German and were therefore viewed as disloyal traitors because they were German, not because they believed in non-violence.
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Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 1:09 pm
Should we actually experience another period of mass conscription in this country (which is exceedingly unlikely because the nature of warfare has change at least in the west), I would expect a re-fracturing of Christianity along new fault lines that are more liberal versus conservative. With lots of politically liberal non-Anabaptist churches coming out opposed and supportive of conscientious objection, and a lot of politically conservative churches supportive.
Conscription is a very real pressing issue for brethren in my church. Not every Anabaptist lives in and is an American or Canadian citizen.
We do everything we can to help support our brethren including ones in countries where there are no rights for COs at all - only a prison sentence.
That only became a distinguishing feature of conservative Anabaptism when the practice died off among the mainstream. It wouldn’t probably have distinguished early Anabaptists from their neighbors because it was common for all women then, is my guess.
I have photos of my Lutheran ancestors. They all wore a headcovering (the women folk, I mean )
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Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 12:48 pmAnd I think you overestimate the extent to which Christians in other churches are "warmongers" or support violence. I have known many many people from all manner of non-Anabaptist churches who are as opposed to war and violence as any stereotypical Anabaptist. Whether it be violence conducted on their behalf by local police, or military adventurism overseas. And who are most certainly personally opposed to engaging in violence themselves, whether it be beating their kids, carrying or owning firearms, working in jobs that require violence such as police, or working in the military.
My point is that believer baptism and being personally unwilling to engage in violence are hardly definitive of Anabaptism.
Anabaptists have historically been opposed to coercion or causing harm to others, violence being one of the more readily identifiable matters.
Are the "many, many people" opposed to coercion or are they glad to be involved in lobbying and politics?
Do the churches they are part of take a stand on these things or is it left to individual conscience?
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Ken wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:05 pmIf that is your bare minimum criteria then nearly all Baptists and Pentecostals would also qualify as Anabaptists as they also practice believer baptism and the vast majority of them do not and would not kill another human being.
The vast majority are conscientious objectors to going to war?
It is all theoretical because we have not had conscription in 50 years in the US. In Canada there hasn't been conscription since WW2 and even then it was tiny. Only something like 13,000 Canadians total were drafted in 1944 and 1945 and only a small fraction made it to the front lines and combat. Most Canadian draftees were placed in supporting roles and were never deployed overseas. So, from a North American context, conscientious objection to conscription is essentially a non-issue or merely hypothetical. The last American conscripted was age 19 in 1973 and so would be age 79 today. There are probably no living Canadians who were subjected to conscription. So it is quickly passing from living memory in North America.
Should we actually experience another period of mass conscription in this country (which is exceedingly unlikely because the nature of warfare has change at least in the west), I would expect a re-fracturing of Christianity along new fault lines that are more liberal versus conservative. With lots of politically liberal non-Anabaptist churches coming out opposed and supportive of conscientious objection, and a lot of politically conservative churches supportive.
So yes, you can point to centuries past when Anabaptists defined themselves as nonresistant or pacifists in the face of universal conscription. That sort of thing is central to the history of Anabaptism. But when it comes to today in 2023? I'm not sure it is as much of a distinguishing factor as you think. Since it is an issue that virtually no one alive has faced or is likely to ever face.
The Baptists I know are very patriotic and support the troops. Historically Anabaptists have not taken this position at all. And yes, today, there are many people all over the place who identify as Anabaptist but do not embrace the beliefs, values, and practices of historic Anabaptism.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:15 amThe Baptists I know are very patriotic and support the troops. Historically Anabaptists have not taken this position at all. And yes, today, there are many people all over the place who identify as Anabaptist but do not embrace the beliefs, values, and practices of historic Anabaptism.
Being "supportive of the troops" is one of the most meaningless and trite gestures in American politics. It essentially means nothing and is just virtue signaling for conservatives like the blue lives matter stuff.
Does it mean you support American foreign policy in X-country? No
Does it mean you support better pay and benefits and working conditions for soldiers? Not if it means a tax increase
Does it mean you support more money for veterans health care? Not if it means a tax increase
Does it mean you support an expanded GI-Bill so that soldiers have more access to education and low interest loans? No, not if it means a tax increase.
Does it mean you support increased funding for homeless veterans and veterans suffering from substance abuse? No.
So what does it actually mean? Apparently it just means that you put one of these $3 stickers on your bumper and you are good to go
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Ken wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:02 pm
Which Mennonite churches were burned and chained shut during WW2? Are you talking about the United States or some place like Ukraine? I have never heard of such a thing. The government had a alternative voluntary service program for conscientious objectors during WW2 of which various relatives of mine took part.
Although honestly, more of them like my grandfather were simply exempted from service because they were engaged in agriculture and had families and so were not subject to conscription in the first place. I have no idea what the actual numbers were, but I would guess that during WW2 there were far more Amish and Mennonite young men who got agricultural/head of household exemptions than who did alternative service as conscientious objectors. So as long as you were married with children and running a farm you were not likely subject to conscription, even during WW2.
There was a church in Oregon and one in Kansas I think?
I’d have to go digging again.
My whole extended family on my father's side were Mennonites in Oregon during WW2 and I have never heard such a story. My great grandfather and several great uncles were Mennonite ministers in Oregon during that time. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it isn't part of any oral history I have ever heard. Very few of them did VS service in lieu of conscription, but rather most of them got agricultural exemptions to the draft. Although I did have one great uncle who served in the military during WW2 and then returned to be a member of the church where I grew up for many decades until he died. I have no idea whether he was drafted or volunteered. Same thing on my mother's side. She had an uncle who served in the military and then returned. So not all Mennonites took the conscientious objection route. Those who didn't were mostly just not talked about I think, and kind of brushed under the table. But they were not thrown out of the church.
Per Gameo, Harrisburg Mennonite was burned down during WW1 and WW2 for practicing nonresistance.
There was a church in Oregon and one in Kansas I think?
I’d have to go digging again.
My whole extended family on my father's side were Mennonites in Oregon during WW2 and I have never heard such a story. My great grandfather and several great uncles were Mennonite ministers in Oregon during that time. Not saying it didn't happen, just that it isn't part of any oral history I have ever heard. Very few of them did VS service in lieu of conscription, but rather most of them got agricultural exemptions to the draft. Although I did have one great uncle who served in the military during WW2 and then returned to be a member of the church where I grew up for many decades until he died. I have no idea whether he was drafted or volunteered. Same thing on my mother's side. She had an uncle who served in the military and then returned. So not all Mennonites took the conscientious objection route. Those who didn't were mostly just not talked about I think, and kind of brushed under the table. But they were not thrown out of the church.
Per Gameo, Harrisburg Mennonite was burned down during WW1 and WW2 for practicing nonresistance.
The Gameo article only says the church was burned during WW2, not WW1. I did some digging into this history as I grew up only about 15 miles from that church.
Here is a compilation of oral histories of the church from that time period. The recollections of one person mentions harassment during WW1 and that vandals painted a yellow stripe around the church and put a padlock on the door and mentions that young men were conscientious objectors during WW2 but no mention of an arson fire during WW2: https://www.pnmhs.org/wp-content/upload ... 1.Sep_.pdf
The recollections of a second person mention the same WW1 incident with the yellow paint and that the church burned during WW2 but not that it was arson or related to the church's pacifist stance. You would think that if the church had been burned by arsonists for their pacifist stance it would have been something to highlight in oral histories of WW2
Finally I found an article about Oregon Mennonites during the war years in the Oregon Historical Society Journal titled "The Quiet Pacifists, Oregon Old Mennonites 1914 - 1945" that mentioned the 1944 church burning and cited newspaper coverage from the time which cited speculation in the community that it could have been arson rather than an accident, that there was no definitive evidence either way. Also that someone apparently fired into the homes of Mennonites during WW1 which was not mentioned in any of the oral histories of the church so perhaps that wasn't Harrisburg but some other Oregon congregation. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20614449
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If you are going to actually argue and do digging into Harrisburg, you might as well speak to some of the older members. Might get actual accurate information that way.
I’d tell you who to speak to, but he died within the last few years. He really knew his stuff though which is how I know about most of the history from there.
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Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:57 am
If you are going to actually argue and do digging into Harrisburg, you might as well speak to some of the older members. Might get actual accurate information that way.
I’d tell you who to speak to, but he died within the last few years. He really knew his stuff though which is how I know about most of the history from there.
I'm not making an argument either way. I was simply curious because this is not story I had ever heard having grown up nearby. And back around 1979-1982 when I was in HS there was a LOT Of discussion and sharing of oral histories on this subject in both my church and extended family. That was when Carter reinstated draft registration due to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and a lot of Mennonite churches were gearing up for the possibility that their young men might once again be subject to conscription. And so the older generation did a whole lot of sharing of their experiences during the war years ( both wars).
What I managed to find with a small amount of digging is contained in the histories that I cited above. Which I posted because I thought some here might be interested as well. I'm not interested enough to drive down to Harrisburg and try to track down people who would now be in their 90s. But if you are, please let us know what you find.
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