Holdeman shunning practice - does it include family?

[Chris]

The ban, shunning, avoidance… we make different words but the core is the two words “company” and “eat” or συναναμίγνυμι and συνεσθίω
Now I’m no Greek scholar… but changing the word we use is meaningless. We really are talking specific practice rather then a word.

Yet “shunning” has a specific meaning most people associate with the Amish, as Chris’s questions showed. It is not a term Holdemans ever use about ourselves. If a Holdeman talks about shunning or the ban, they are talking about Amish practice.

Is avoidance mandated by the church? So if a parent has a child who leaves, it's up to the parent to practice avoidance on them or not. Is this correct?

What would happen if a parent (member) had an adult child (former member) who left over for supper and they ate at their dinner table?

[Josh]

Is avoidance mandated by the church?

I believe it is taught in the Bible.

There are no Holdeman policemen peering into members’ homes making sure the card table is set up next to the main dining room table for their expelled son to eat his breakfast at

So if a parent has a child who leaves, it's up to the parent to practice avoidance on them or not. Is this correct?

It is up to all the membership to practice the avoidance. Sometimes an expelled person has a heart seeking repentance and will respect the avoidance (eg not trying to shake hands with a member).

What would happen if a parent (member) had an adult child (former member) who left over for supper and they ate at their dinner table?

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Family relationships have no bearing on anything. With an expelled member you aren’t supposed to:

- Eat at the exact same table but some allowances are made for social propriety eg in a public restaurant, etc.
- Shake hands, but if an expelled person makes you shake their hand, that’s on them. We generally don’t stiff arm nowadays
- Greet with a holy kiss

In addition we believe members shouldn’t be partners with non members so if you are tied up in a business, after a few years it is expected to start winding the partnership down.

All things are done with an eye of love and trying to win a brother back as it says in James.

[Chris]

Is avoidance mandated by the church?

I believe it is taught in the Bible.

There are no Holdeman policemen peering into members’ homes making sure the card table is set up next to the main dining room table for their expelled son to eat his breakfast at

So if a parent has a child who leaves, it's up to the parent to practice avoidance on them or not. Is this correct?

It is up to all the membership to practice the avoidance. Sometimes an expelled person has a heart seeking repentance and will respect the avoidance (eg not trying to shake hands with a member).

What would happen if a parent (member) had an adult child (former member) who left over for supper and they ate at their dinner table?

I’m not sure what you’re asking. Family relationships have no bearing on anything. With an expelled member you aren’t supposed to:

- Eat at the exact same table but some allowances are made for social propriety eg in a public restaurant, etc.
- Shake hands, but if an expelled person makes you shake their hand, that’s on them. We generally don’t stiff arm nowadays
- Greet with a holy kiss

In addition we believe members shouldn’t be partners with non members so if you are tied up in a business, after a few years it is expected to start winding the partnership down.

All things are done with an eye of love and trying to win a brother back as it says in James.

So family relations do not matter in avoidance (sorry the internet text is not conveying clearly to me)?

If somebody has an adult child that leaves the Holdemans the parents are not supposed to allow them to eat at their dining room table? What about hug them? Shake hands with them?

The part that is not clear is -

You said "Family relationships have no bearing on anything..." There is a difference in how I can read this? You can hug a brother at church in brotherly love, or shake hands with somebody in brotherly love. With a child you can kiss them without being a holy kiss, or hug them without meaning anything to do with church but rather hug them because you love them and they are your child....

Holy kiss vs. kiss
Hand shake as a peace offering to a brother (or hug) vs. hugging a child
Food for family and visiting vs. food for hosting church functions and spiritual discussion over a meal.

So do you mean that the parent can indeed hug, kiss, and eat with their own child in a family relationship type of way --- but not for purposes of holiness, church life (host family stuff), and a holy kiss?

-or-

Do you mean not at the same table period, family or not of an expelled person. etc.

[Josh]

So family relations do not matter in avoidance (sorry the internet text is not conveying clearly to me)?

The Bible doesn’t say anything special about the avoidance as far as family vs non family.

If somebody has an adult child that leaves the Holdemans the parents are not supposed to allow them to eat at their dining room table? What about hug them? Shake hands with them?

I don’t have any family members who are expelled. However, I often give hugs to expelled brethren. For family gatherings an additional table is setup, often right next to the main table.

No shaking of hands. With an expelled brother sometimes I put a hand on a shoulder or an arm around a shoulder tho. Or just an embrace.

The part that is not clear is -

You said "Family relationships have no bearing on anything..." There is a difference in how I can read this? You can hug a brother at church in brotherly love, or shake hands with somebody in brotherly love. With a child you can kiss them without being a holy kiss, or hug them without meaning anything to do with church but rather hug them because you love them and they are your child....

Holy kiss vs. kiss
Hand shake as a peace offering to a brother (or hug) vs. hugging a child
Food for family and visiting vs. food for hosting church functions and spiritual discussion over a meal.

So do you mean that the parent can indeed hug, kiss, and eat with their own child in a family relationship type of way --- but not for purposes of holiness, church life (host family stuff), and a holy kiss?

Very few people holy-kiss their family. The kiss of peace is usually one between brethren (or sisters). Of course normal hugs and non holy kisses are fine. (How much kissing of adult children is going on anyway?)

-or-

Do you mean not at the same table period, family or not of an expelled person. etc.

Not at the same physical table.

Early Anabaptists were much more strict and believed in things like marital avoidance, but there is no scriptural basis for such things.

[Soloist]

Not at the same physical table.

Early Anabaptists were much more strict and believed in things like marital avoidance, but there is no scriptural basis for such things.

There isn’t a Scriptural basis not to either. It doesn’t specify there at all.
That being said, Menno Simons spoke against the practice and outside of Dirk I haven’t seen it.

[Josh]

Not at the same physical table.

Early Anabaptists were much more strict and believed in things like marital avoidance, but there is no scriptural basis for such things.

There isn’t a Scriptural basis not to either. It doesn’t specify there at all.
That being said, Menno Simons spoke against the practice and outside of Dirk I haven’t seen it.

It was a source of much controversy amongst the early Flemish divisions.

[Chris]

Would somebody from a Beachy Amish circle be required to be re-baptized if they joined Holdeman groups? Considering they were Baptized through pouring and on a confession of their faith in Jesus Christ.

[Soloist]

Would somebody from a Beachy Amish circle be required to be re-baptized if they joined Holdeman groups? Considering they were Baptized through pouring and on a confession of their faith in Jesus Christ.

They would require it from any background.

[Josh]

Would somebody from a Beachy Amish circle be required to be re-baptized if they joined Holdeman groups? Considering they were Baptized through pouring and on a confession of their faith in Jesus Christ.

Holdemans don’t consider Beachys more “special” than anybody else.

[Chris]

Would somebody from a Beachy Amish circle be required to be re-baptized if they joined Holdeman groups? Considering they were Baptized through pouring and on a confession of their faith in Jesus Christ.

Holdemans don’t consider Beachys more “special” than anybody else.

?

I mean is their Baptism on their confession of faith in Jesus Christ (believer's Baptism) recognized? I mean where a person can come to a Holdeman church with a proper believer's Baptism on confession of faith as an "adult" and join in (after they get to know the church), without them needing to be re-Baptized again (as an adult believer on their confession of faith in Jesus Christ).