New Testament teaching on Interest/Usury

[Josh]

Sure perhaps if you are proposing that all Christians form isolationist and separatist groups that remove themselves from the worldly economy such as the Hutterites and Amish. But if Christians are going to engage in the worldly economy, open businesses, conduct trade, buy property, make investments, etc. Then they are going to constantly come into contact with finance and credit in all its forms. And I believe it is true that even the Amish use credit and interest-paying bank accounts.

Why on earth to Christians need to do all those worldly pursuits? After such do the Gentiles seek.

[Ken]

Sure perhaps if you are proposing that all Christians form isolationist and separatist groups that remove themselves from the worldly economy such as the Hutterites and Amish. But if Christians are going to engage in the worldly economy, open businesses, conduct trade, buy property, make investments, etc. Then they are going to constantly come into contact with finance and credit in all its forms. And I believe it is true that even the Amish use credit and interest-paying bank accounts.

Why on earth to Christians need to do all those worldly pursuits? After such do the Gentiles seek.

You and most people on this forum engage in commerce and employment with the wider world. Every time you engage in any sort of work at all you either owe a debt to others if you are paid in advance, or you are owed a debt if you get paid after the fact. That may not be usury, but as you pointed out upstream:

We should lend expecting nothing in return.

and...

He spoke to an audience that already believed charging interest was a sin. He raised the bar to not expecting principal to be repaid either.

Do actually do that yourself? Do you engage in work for others and expect not to get paid?

And when you get paid do you get paid in dollars or some form of barter? And if it is dollars, what do you do with your paycheck? Immediately cash it into gold coins? Or do you deposit it into a bank which is another form of loan. Do you then have expectations that the bank will repay your loan to them when you go to make a withdrawal or write a check? Do you keep track of your account balances or assume it is all just meaningless?

Every time you receive or write a check you are engaging in a loan. That is what a check is, it is a "promissory note". And all the electronic equivalents such as debit and credit cards and electronic transfers are more of the same. As is paper money. What does the front of a dollar bill say in the top left corner?

[Josh]

Do actually do that yourself? Do you engage in work for others and expect not to get paid?

I once did some work and the person did not pay me for several months and I ended up short about $80,000. I did not pursue it at a court of law or demand payment. I also had my own payroll to meet which I had to pay out of my savings.

And when you get paid do you get paid in dollars or some form of barter? And if it is dollars, what do you do with your paycheck? Immediately cash it into gold coins? Or do you deposit it into a bank which is another form of loan. Do you then have expectations that the bank will repay your loan to them when you go to make a withdrawal or write a check? Do you keep track of your account balances or assume it is all just meaningless?

Ken, I think claiming that my deposit in a bank is a loan is frankly ridiculous. The money is on deposit at the bank. If the bank is not being honest and is actually not keeping the money in their vault, that is on them.

Every time you receive or write a check you are engaging in a loan. That is what a check is, it is a "promissory note". And all the electronic equivalents such as debit and credit cards and electronic transfers are more of the same. As is paper money. What does the front of a dollar bill say in the top left corner?

No, a check is not a loan. The money had better be in the account before writing a check. I wrote a check two weeks ago and forgot to transfer money into the checkwriting account and the check ended up returned. I had to rush to get cash to replace the missing payment.

In any case, the topic of this thread is usury, not loans, and specifically what the New Testament teaches about them. But in any case, the New Testament teaches us not to demand what is owed to us nor to take people to court and to joyfully accept the spoilation of our goods. I would stand by those statements. Ultimately if someone keeps on not paying me for doing work, I may choose to stop working for them and do work for someone else. I have made this decision multiple times.

[Ken]

Do actually do that yourself? Do you engage in work for others and expect not to get paid?

I once did some work and the person did not pay me for several months and I ended up short about $80,000. I did not pursue it at a court of law or demand payment. I also had my own payroll to meet which I had to pay out of my savings.

And when you get paid do you get paid in dollars or some form of barter? And if it is dollars, what do you do with your paycheck? Immediately cash it into gold coins? Or do you deposit it into a bank which is another form of loan. Do you then have expectations that the bank will repay your loan to them when you go to make a withdrawal or write a check? Do you keep track of your account balances or assume it is all just meaningless?

Ken, I think claiming that my deposit in a bank is a loan is frankly ridiculous. The money is on deposit at the bank. If the bank is not being honest and is actually not keeping the money in their vault, that is on them.

Every time you receive or write a check you are engaging in a loan. That is what a check is, it is a "promissory note". And all the electronic equivalents such as debit and credit cards and electronic transfers are more of the same. As is paper money. What does the front of a dollar bill say in the top left corner?

No, a check is not a loan. The money had better be in the account before writing a check. I wrote a check two weeks ago and forgot to transfer money into the checkwriting account and the check ended up returned. I had to rush to get cash to replace the missing payment.

In any case, the topic of this thread is usury, not loans, and specifically what the New Testament teaches about them. But in any case, the New Testament teaches us not to demand what is owed to us nor to take people to court and to joyfully accept the spoilation of our goods. I would stand by those statements. Ultimately if someone keeps on not paying me for doing work, I may choose to stop working for them and do work for someone else. I have made this decision multiple times.

We have actually discovered that the New Testament contains no teachings directly related to the specific topic of usury.

You yourself explained this by stating that Jesus didn't have to address usury because he was speaking to an audience that already understood the concept and that he was upping the bar to include loans themselves, not just the interest on them.

And yes, when you deposit money in a bank you are actually loaning money to the bank. They then take your deposit and invest it or make it available to others to themselves borrow. You are not gifting your money to the bank, you are loaning it to them because you expect to be repaid (with or without interest) when you go to retrieve the funds. The deposit is simply the record of that loan.

Checks are also a form of loan, that is why they are called promissory notes. If I buy a car from you for $1000 and write a $1000 check and drive away with your car. I have given you a piece of paper with my signature on it that promises you will get your money when you go to the bank and cash that check. The check itself is worthless and is nothing more than a formalized IOU (as in I OWE YOU) with my signature on it. It represents a debt that will be repaid when the check is cashed.

[Josh]

Neither bank deposits nor checks are "loans" in any sensible meaning of the term.

You are welcome to invent your own definitions for things and use words differently than other people. However, in a discussion of the New Testament and how we should handle Jesus' teachings about loans (and, yes, usury; Jesus taught a very important parable about going back and demanding repayment of a debt), it is not proper to consider bank deposits as "loans".

Consumers do not loan money to a bank. They place it on deposit. It is guaranteed by the bank the money can be withdrawn on demand at any time, and if the bank has problems where they can't do that, it is then guaranteed by the FDIC. This is not a "loan".

[Ken]

Neither bank deposits nor checks are "loans" in any sensible meaning of the term.

You are welcome to invent your own definitions for things and use words differently than other people. However, in a discussion of the New Testament and how we should handle Jesus' teachings about loans (and, yes, usury; Jesus taught a very important parable about going back and demanding repayment of a debt), it is not proper to consider bank deposits as "loans".

Consumers do not loan money to a bank. They place it on deposit. It is guaranteed by the bank the money can be withdrawn on demand at any time, and if the bank has problems where they can't do that, it is then guaranteed by the FDIC. This is not a "loan".

The Bible essentially treats debts and loans as synonymous concepts. As does modern finance. Any personal or business balance sheet has debits and credits, which are either money owed to you or money that you owe others. You cannot run a business without tracking debits and credits. You do the same thing when you balance your checking account and track checks you have written but have not yet cleared, and deposits such as paychecks you are expecting but which have not yet been credited.

Do you think Jesus would distinguish between a check that I write to you with my signature and and IOU that I write to you with my signature? In both cases it is a piece of paper promising future payment for a debt.

[Josh]

A check is the same as cash, and is not a “debt”, but the money in my account legally belongs to the payee as soon as I give him the check. This is not the same at all as a loan.

As I said earlier, bank deposits are not loans. They are deposits and are always available immediately for withdrawal, unlike loans which have a repayment schedule.

[ohio jones]

Do you think Jesus would distinguish between a check that I write to you with my signature and and IOU that I write to you with my signature? In both cases it is a piece of paper promising future payment for a debt.

Jesus might know more about double-entry bookkeeping than you seem to. An IOU is a debit to accounts receivable and a credit to whatever the IOU is for. The receipt of a check is a credit to accounts receivable and a debit to undeposited funds. It is not a future payment for a debt, it is a payment.

[Ken]

Do you think Jesus would distinguish between a check that I write to you with my signature and and IOU that I write to you with my signature? In both cases it is a piece of paper promising future payment for a debt.

Jesus might know more about double-entry bookkeeping than you seem to. An IOU is a debit to accounts receivable and a credit to whatever the IOU is for. The receipt of a check is a credit to accounts receivable and a debit to undeposited funds. It is not a future payment for a debt, it is a payment.

If I write you a million dollar check does that mean you have a million dollars?

[MaxPC]

Do you think Jesus would distinguish between a check that I write to you with my signature and and IOU that I write to you with my signature? In both cases it is a piece of paper promising future payment for a debt.

Jesus might know more about double-entry bookkeeping than you seem to. An IOU is a debit to accounts receivable and a credit to whatever the IOU is for. The receipt of a check is a credit to accounts receivable and a debit to undeposited funds. It is not a future payment for a debt, it is a payment.

Precisely.