New Testament teaching on Interest/Usury

[Praxis+Theodicy]

Accidentally double-posted. Deleted.

[ohio jones]

Do you think Jesus would distinguish between a check that I write to you with my signature and and IOU that I write to you with my signature? In both cases it is a piece of paper promising future payment for a debt.

Jesus might know more about double-entry bookkeeping than you seem to. An IOU is a debit to accounts receivable and a credit to whatever the IOU is for. The receipt of a check is a credit to accounts receivable and a debit to undeposited funds. It is not a future payment for a debt, it is a payment.

If I write you a million dollar check does that mean you have a million dollars?

Yes. But if it bounces, neither of us do.

[Ken]

Jesus might know more about double-entry bookkeeping than you seem to. An IOU is a debit to accounts receivable and a credit to whatever the IOU is for. The receipt of a check is a credit to accounts receivable and a debit to undeposited funds. It is not a future payment for a debt, it is a payment.

If I write you a million dollar check does that mean you have a million dollars?

Yes. But if it bounces, neither of us do.

Details of bookkeeping methods aside, the point is that a check is not an actual payment, It is not at all the same thing as a bag of gold Krugerrands worth $1 million. it is the promise of a payment which is realized or made good when the check is cashed. If you receive a personal check you have nothing of inherent value. You can’t use it to buy groceries at most grocery stores or you can’t use it to buy a car on Craigslist. They are going to want actual payment. You can even choose to forgive the debt by tearing up the check just like you can with an IOU. Or set it aside for a month. And people do things like post-date checks to extend the period of the loan.

Checks did not exist in Biblical times because banks as we know them today did not exist in Biblical times. They are largely an invention of the Italian Renaissance. In Biblical times payment was in actual coin that had inherent value based on the gold, silver or copper content of the coin. If you got a silver coin in payment that was an actual payment and you had no further connection with the person who paid you. You don’t need to worry about whether they are going to cover the check or cancel it or let it bounce.

What we do today in the modern economy is constantly move money around on paper or electronically. Whether you are a business or individual it is a constant flow of electronic digits, some of which represent credits and some of which debits, or to put another way, money that is owed you versus money that you owe others. Whether you call all these credits and debits “debts” or “loans” is largely semantics.

We don’t weigh out gold or silver coins as in Biblical times and make actual payments with currency that has inherent value. It is all just promises of credit or debit. Unless we are doing barter with actual goods.

[Josh]

Negotiable instruments (ie checks) have been around for thousands of years. And yes you can buy groceries or a car with a third party check. I paid a medical bill recently with an endorsed third party check. Legally a check is the same as cash.

[Ken]

Negotiable instruments (ie checks) have been around for thousands of years. And yes you can buy groceries or a car with a third party check. I paid a medical bill recently with an endorsed third party check. Legally a check is the same as cash.

Checks are a written instruction to a second party (the bank) to make a payment to a third party (the payee). As such, they are a record of a debt owed and not the payment itself. They were not invented or institutionalized until about the 1400s and even then they were tied to a specific bank. If you received a check you had to go to the specific bank in which the account was held in order to receive payment. Sometimes with the actual person who wrote the check or his representative accompanying you to certify that the debt is valid. The modern system of inter-regional checking where you can cash a check written at one bank at any other bank didn't emerge until the late 1800s.

In any event, many forms of debt are negotiable instruments. Mortgages are frequently bought and sold as anyone who has a mortgage can find out when your mortgage is sold and you have a new loan processor. They can even be turned into things like mortgage backed securities and bought and sold on the open market. The same thing happens with other debt accounts. I opened my first credit card with Seattle First National Bank long ago. It was later acquired by Bank of America and poof, my credit card account was sold to Bank of America and I suddenly owed them instead. Even the ancient Romans bought and sold debts.

If the check you used to pay your medical bill bounced what will eventually happen? Your medical provider will eventually sell your account to someone called a Debt Collector who is now the new owner of the debt just the same as if you don't pay your credit card account or any other loan.

The point of all this is that our modern system of finance is vastly different from what existed in the Old or New Testament. It is an endless electronic flow of debits and credits which are nothing more than electronic records of money owed and money received, that are all ultimately backed by the Federal Reserve and the US government.

And so you can't just take words written in the Old or New Testament and apply them to a financial system that did not even exist at that time. Any more than you can turn to the Bible for information about electricity, digital communications, computers, or aerospace engineering. You have to dig deeper and ask what was the real meaning and intent behind these various verses related to usury and loans. What was the societal context and why did such rules or teachings exist? Which was my original point to begin with.

[Josh]

And so you can't just take words written in the Old or New Testament and apply them to a financial system that did not even exist at that time.

The Word of God applies to all people in all places in all times.

[MaxPC]

Negotiable instruments (ie checks) have been around for thousands of years. And yes you can buy groceries or a car with a third party check. I paid a medical bill recently with an endorsed third party check. Legally a check is the same as cash.

A few years ago I recall reading that an ancient form of check was found in an archaeological dig. It was written in cuneiform.

[Sudsy]

Personally, I don't believe the NT gives us all the instructions we need today in a clear way in how we handle our money. I'm surprised that there is little mention of the Holy Spirit being given us to instruct us in the way that we should live.

Use of monies is quite simple if we chose to believe that when we are unsure of how to use it, we wait on God to instruct us. This may at times require fasting. My problem is to try to figure things out on my own and reluctance to wait on God for guidance.

When 2 Timothy 3:16 says all scripture is profitable in guiding us, I believe that is true and that scripture tells us that we are to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit may use scripture but is not limited to scripture to clearly instruct us in the way that we should go. Otherwise, up until the last couple centuries most Christians did not have easy access to the written scriptures.

So, being led by the Holy Spirit is crucial to how we handle money. Scripture says we receive not because we don't ask or when we ask we really are not asking expecting and waiting on guidance.

I really don't need to be a great Bible scholar to be guided by the Spirit and I believe some of the most productive Christ followers are those relying on the Spirit. Sometimes this has been made very obvious to me by new converts in how the Spirit leads them.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth on the use of monies.